League Playoffs - 2013 edition

Chaos! Your making it tough on yourself.. hehe.

You mean I may actually make round 2 lol, wait maybe I shouldnt have said that lol

I'm playing my new army, Red Rivers - Chaos Guard

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kharn

I pm'd you Adam if you still want to get a game in today.

just so everyone's aware, there's a warmachine tourney at the den today. so you might wanna make arrangements to meet elsewhere since the flames of war guys are also there and they usually swamp 2 or 3 tables.

victory goes to Tom!

Great Game, very close! But Tom got a few more lucky shots that I could.

One big thing that came up is, "what cover save does intervening terrain provide?" In previous editions, if you were shooting at something with terrain between firer and target, the target got a 4+ cover save.

Now, in this edition, it seems that you get a 5+ 'obscured' cover save when there are intervening models, and a save when the target is in area terrain.

But I can't find anything like the goal post saves that existed previously. It doesn't appear to talk about this under cover or under area terrain. Anyone know the rules answer to this and what page/ what FAQ/ what errata this is under?

"Ethereal Vicanus are you sure this is a wise course of action? The Imperials have already managed to entrench their forces with a bastion. We have also heard reports they have been joined by one they call 'The Betrayer'."

"I did not say it was wise commander, only that it must be done. The Greater Good demands we engage the Imperial forces here to buy time for our other theaters. We must all do our duty Shas'O."

"Very well Ethereal. At least the dawn will cover our approach."

It was a close game versus Adam. Luck I don't think played a huge part. It seemed to sway back and forth most of the game. I will admit I did get lucky killing Adam's Manticore 1st turn with a Railgun Shot after he failed a 4+ cover save. After that it seemed to be fickle for a good game (failing to kill the bastion with 2 meltagun shots from my crisis team then rolling a 4 on their jump distance to try and get out of LOS was awful. If they had stuck around and killed the Basilisk and maybe hurt the Bastion would have been much smoother sailing). If the game had gone on for another turn I was pretty much done for.

I will agree there was a bit of confusion about that particular rule. Also with shooting out of area terrain. Since under the old editions there was rule that you could shoot out of so much area terrain (I believe it was 2"?) without your target getting the area terrain cover save.

Intervening Terrain confers a save to models, IIRC (I'll look it up) That's basically how I've been playing it though.

For Vehicles, if you're obscured by 25% or greater, you get a save based on the terrain that's obscuring you. That's covered under "True Line of Sight" under the vehicle section.

Lore Weaver wrote:Intervening Terrain confers a save to models, IIRC (I'll look it up) That's basically how I've been playing it though.

For Vehicles, if you're obscured by 25% or greater, you get a save based on the terrain that's obscuring you. That's covered under "True Line of Sight" under the vehicle section.

Well this is basically my question. I have a broadside sitting in area terrain (a ruin conferring a 4+ cover save going around ~3" of all sides of the broadside). Now if I shoot outside the area terrain to hit a obliterator, does it get the cover save from the ruin since it is technically intervening terrain at this point.

From how I understand it you don't count the cover you are in just anything between and the terrain your target is in unless your target is in the same piece of terrain

Ya, if you're in terrain and are 6" of the edge, the other guy does't get cover.

A few notes on that....

Upper floors of ruins aren't area terrain. If the dude is standing on a balcony or the like, he prob has no save. The bottom floor is ALWAYS area terrain.

If its not area terrain the model must be obscured.

Intervening Terrain has to obscure the model. Shooting over a crater at a squad 9" behind it isn't going to confer a cover, unless the crater walls are very high.

Well.. You just have to get down and look. If the models.are.obscured 25% by intervening terrain.. Cover save! Also, remember if you go to ground in area terrain, you get +2 to your cover save.

Beau.. I was under the impression if your in a ruined building you get 4+ no matter what.. Balcony, roof.. Wjatever. But yeah.. The bottom floor is always just area terrain.

Was reading thru the terrain rules, kinda like "What the...?" Assuming they are trying to make devastator snipers not as good.

By the way they wrote it, If you get on the back side of a ruin and an enemy squad is all above the ground floor.... No cover.

Ya, I just looked it up at it's 25% obscuring the model, it gets a save for whatever obscures it.

Also, if you draw line of sight though a forest while shooting, your target gets a 5+. Either way, as long as you could see most of the obliterator, it would not get a cover save.

System Commander wrote:Well.. You just have to get down and look. If the models.are.obscured 25% by intervening terrain.. Cover save! Also, remember if you go to ground in area terrain, you get +2 to your cover save.

I found the 25% bit, but I can't find the +2 bit, is it just the Aegis line?

Lore Weaver wrote:

System Commander wrote:Well.. You just have to get down and look. If the models.are.obscured 25% by intervening terrain.. Cover save! Also, remember if you go to ground in area terrain, you get +2 to your cover save.

I found the 25% bit, but I can't find the +2 bit, is it just the Aegis line?

it is under the area terrain rule.

@ Roland - All ruins provide a 4+ cover save. It is right under ruins basics. If the ruin also has a base the first level is also considered area terrain but only for the first level.

Lore Weaver wrote:Ya, I just looked it up at it's 25% obscuring the model, it gets a save for whatever obscures it.

Also, if you draw line of sight though a forest while shooting, your target gets a 5+. Either way, as long as you could see most of the obliterator, it would not get a cover save.

The only thing I am reading is if your target is physically in area terrain or is obscured by 25% it gets a cover save depending on the obscurement or area terrain. I don't see any rules that would provide cover by simply shooting through terrain that does not obscure the target (forests for example).

oh and personal note for myself valid parts of models to check line of sight include: heads, torsos, arms, and legs. The only thing not counted are weapons/banner/wings. But if my model can see your models head it has line of sight. I was under the impression it was only to torsos.

Oh and Adam, it didn't come up in our game but models on the battlements suffer the same results as those that occupy except at a strength of 3 instead of six, but then must immediately jump off the roof.

Aegwymourn wrote:

Lore Weaver wrote:Ya, I just looked it up at it's 25% obscuring the model, it gets a save for whatever obscures it.

Also, if you draw line of sight though a forest while shooting, your target gets a 5+. Either way, as long as you could see most of the obliterator, it would not get a cover save.

The only thing I am reading is if your target is physically in area terrain or is obscured by 25% it gets a cover save depending on the obscurement or area terrain. I don't see any rules that would provide cover by simply shooting through terrain that does not obscure the target (forests for example).

oh and personal note for myself valid parts of models to check line of sight include: heads, torsos, arms, and legs. The only thing not counted are weapons/banner/wings. But if my model can see your models head it has line of sight. I was under the impression it was only to torsos.

Oh and Adam, it didn't come up in our game but models on the battlements suffer the same results as those that occupy except at a strength of 3 instead of six, but then must immediately jump off the roof.

Ahh that's cool. Makes sense if the ground below them is collapsing.

Also, it seems that artillery behind a fortification gets a 3+ save, 2+ if you can't see their face or are camo netted.

And again, great game!

Aegwymourn wrote:
The only thing I am reading is if your target is physically in area terrain or is obscured by 25% it gets a cover save depending on the obscurement or area terrain. I don't see any rules that would provide cover by simply shooting through terrain that does not obscure the target (forests for example).

I think the page number is 102, it's under the section for "Forests"

Lore Weaver wrote:

System Commander wrote:Well.. You just have to get down and look. If the models.are.obscured 25% by intervening terrain.. Cover save! Also, remember if you go to ground in area terrain, you get +2 to your cover save.

I found the 25% bit, but I can't find the +2 bit, is it just the Aegis line?

Its under area terrain.

Ruins are 4+ cover..... if they provide 25% obscurced. If you are are the ground floor, you are considered in area terrain and hence get the 4+ even without having 25% obscured. If you stand on the top floor and and don't have 25% of your model obscured, no cover for you.

another rules clarification (I hope I'm not starting to derail this into a rules thread, if so: sorry)

For bastions, the heavy bolters are emplaced weapons, whereas as the quad gun or icarus cannon on the roof is a gun emplacement.

So the heavy bolters that it comes with can only be destroyed on the penetrating hit chart, and must be manned from inside. The Quad gun on the roof can be destroyed on the chart or by shooting it, and it must be manned by an adjacent model.

Roland wrote:Ruins are 4+ cover..... if they provide 25% obscurced. If you are are the ground floor, you are considered in area terrain and hence get the 4+ even without having 25% obscured. If you stand on the top floor and and don't have 25% of your model obscured, no cover for you.

Perhaps the part I'm becoming confused on is that the whole ruin, regardless of area terrain or not, is difficult terrain. And when I read that sentence to me it sounds like if you are in the ruin, and difficult terrain, you have a 4+ cover save. To me that sounds more like the Forests and Area Terrain rules than the standard needing 25% obscured to gain a cover save rule. - quote for reference pg. 98 "Ruins: The basics - All ruins are difficult terrain and provide a 4+ cover save."

@ Adam indeed good game. I would be forced to agree, since fortifications provide a 3+ cover save and if you have 25% coverage you would gain the cover save of the intervening terrain.

Hmm. . For ruins i would assume as lng as you are in the ruin, you get a 4+. Like area terrain.. It doesnt matter if you're really obscured or.not.. But as long as your in a piece of area terrain you get a 5+.