1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Dallas-Exactly. If ya got the model for it from forgeworld, I don't see why not play it!

I'm not a huge fan of counts as forge world, that's getting a bit silly (tho I don't mind biddick's defence platforms, very nice conversions, tho you have to admit, one of the better fw units), but I did face dan's... Something or other platforms that had interceptor aaaand skyfire and were cheap aaaand the rules looked hand written aaaaaaaand they were just lascannons stuck to a base. That stuff ain't cool, if you have the model from forgeworld (or a decent conversion), and the rules, printed or digital (no hand typed stuff, looks too bullshit) then I say go for it.

I fought shas o'rh'ly (oh really?!?) yesterday, the fig is gorgeous, was good but def. nowhere near powerful, and I enjoyed seeing it on the table.

I'm running forgeworld chapter tactics, because I love me some fire hawks (and I started the army waaay before fw released the rules). I don't feel it takes more than 30 seconds to tell the other guy what it does, and that should be happening before the game starts.

Now, much like feast of blades is looking at ruling against, I HATE, hate hate hate fighting doubles of the most powerful units in the game. Double riptide, double helldrake, lookin right at ya. I'm not even saying they are impossible to beat, they are just he most boring units to fight in multiples. Total fire and forget units that take no tactics to really use when you have a lot of em.

Paz wrote:I'm running forgeworld chapter tactics, because I love me some fire hawks (and I started the army waaay before fw released the rules). I don't feel it takes more than 30 seconds to tell the other guy what it does, and that should be happening before the game starts.

Chapter Tactics: Fire Hawks -- So I heard you like flamers...

Paz wrote:Dallas-Exactly. If ya got the model for it from forgeworld, I don't see why not play it!

I'm not a huge fan of counts as forge world, that's getting a bit silly (tho I don't mind biddick's defence platforms, very nice conversions, tho you have to admit, one of the better fw units), but I did face dan's... Something or other platforms that had interceptor aaaand skyfire and were cheap aaaand the rules looked hand written aaaaaaaand they were just lascannons stuck to a base. That stuff ain't cool, if you have the model from forgeworld (or a decent conversion), and the rules, printed or digital (no hand typed stuff, looks too bullshit) then I say go for it.

Hypernos platform. It IS a gun on a base. But I see where you're coming from.

Dunno about this whole FW being overpowered thing. All of the top tourney winners out there seem to be drawn from the base codecies. Tau-dar cares not for forgeworld. The base ridiculousness that is a wave serpent cares not for forgeworld. exactly Zero of the 2++ Rerollable "deathstars" require Forgeworld. The 2-3 Daemons armies don't pull from FW at atll.

My lowly sabre platforms had nothing, not a thing on the "3++ rerollable 1's - every unit in my army gets Prescience- Daemons army." My game against mark's daemons was a joke. might as well have just played tetris while the other tables finished.... and not a forgeworld model on that side of the table.

Unbalanced is unbalanced, weather it comes from the room at GW that has forgeworld on the door, or the one 20 feet away that has 40k on the door.

I agree with Paz on the models thing, the same way that i agree with Representative models in general. Have enough respect for your opponent to show up with models that look like what they are supposed to be. I won't hold anyone to having the FW models though. IF GW isn't going to support tournaments then i feel under no obligation keep my models "pure"


PS: funny that this thread popped up. Just today at work i was thinking that i might give a Renegades and Heretics Army a go, since Fw seemed to be gaining popularity. heh

you really should; i want to see one of these done up without having to take a plane ride across the country to see it.

Planes wrote:

Paz wrote:I'm running forgeworld chapter tactics, because I love me some fire hawks (and I started the army waaay before fw released the rules). I don't feel it takes more than 30 seconds to tell the other guy what it does, and that should be happening before the game starts.

Chapter Tactics: Fire Hawks -- So I heard you like flamers...

You know who likes flamers more? Salamanders.
Guess who can take hand flamers? Only independent characters.
Not saying fire hawks aren't pretty sweet, but by no means are they overpowered.

Oh yay, I can finally post from home. Ha.. 15 years later and I finally had to scrap Internet Explorer.. yeah yeah, I know... I dont like change ! Which is fitting for this thread..

I'm trying to come around on FW, I really am. But.. 15 years of it being optional is tough to climb over. I'm pretty much there though.. I did almost buy a FIre Raptor last month. I know it's going to be more or less standard, but there are still a a ton of weird things in there, and a lot of people don't have full access to the rupdated rules for models. Its hard to keep track of whats current and not right now, so you should still tell your opponent if your bringing soemthing. Its the right thing to do! We can still really do anything we want.. official or not. If we wanted as a community, we could ban the units we hate, or institute a 1 only rule.. if there was a big enough push we could disallow allies all together. There's is nothing we couldn't institute for the league/community if we wanted to..

But... I don't think we have to do for league games. Just really make sure you give your opponent a heads up if you got something that's a bit out there. Example.. Dallas, I think your a great guy but I could never play that list. It would be the same if anyone else used it.. its just incredibly un-fun. There is very little most armies can do against the screamer/herald/book/Fateweaver unit.. slap invis on them and it makes me queasy. Mark's played a lot of Tzeentch lists, but he always stops short of stepping over that delicate line. A group of screamers.. good enough! If I like playing the person, I would definitely give it one try.. but I would have a really hard time giving it a go again.. even with a different list. I don't have much time for games these days.. so when I do get some time I have to try really hard to make sure it's going to be worth my time and by that.. I mean a fun game.

That's my only problem with a few of the super units these days. Most things I'm willing to give a go.. but like Paz said, a list with multi's of the same powerful unit gets really boring to play fast. Its always going to be different in a tournament setting, I totally get that .. but for friendly games I think your opponents enjoyment should always be a strong deciding factor on if you want to push that envelope.

I was really excited for allies when they first came out, and to a point I still am. I just don't like how the matrix is set up right now.. its creating some bonkers combos and in my opinion, really taking away from the clean look of some armies. In my mind, it really seems like the world would be a happier place with no Battle Brothers.

People were very excited for Tom's highlander event because they knew it was going to be some out of the box thinking, and a temporary reprieve from some of the goofy things. We do have a fairly tame community, but they do creep up from time to time. I really think there's going to be a push back into a composition style of list building for upcoming events. .. not just here but across the entire community.

So.. just make sure you take a step back when your looking at your list wondering if anyone is going to think its a bit extreme.. get a second opinion.. maybe put up a poll? Do you think this list is a pile of Tauntaun? yes, no? Even for a tournament I still think it important to reign things in a bit.

+1 Robyn, well put.

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Dallas does take the ridiculous list from time to time, but as an opponent, it makes it a game of "Hey, can I beat this list"? I see it as a challenge. Because Dallas really is a gentleman, it's not like he's gloating over every die roll or believe's he's a superior tactician because of the nature of the list, I feel like I learn something about 40k from seeing those things on the board.

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A quick observation, I think part of the unease we're feeling is because of the Escalation book and the Tau Dataslate. When GW puts out things that are clearly imbalanced (worse than Waveserpents, Riptides, Heldrakes, Grimoire & Kairos) I think it gets us all on edge.

Paz wrote:

Planes wrote:

Paz wrote:I'm running forgeworld chapter tactics, because I love me some fire hawks (and I started the army waaay before fw released the rules). I don't feel it takes more than 30 seconds to tell the other guy what it does, and that should be happening before the game starts.

Chapter Tactics: Fire Hawks -- So I heard you like flamers...

You know who likes flamers more? Salamanders.
Guess who can take hand flamers? Only independent characters.
Not saying fire hawks aren't pretty sweet, but by no means are they overpowered.

Almost every Sarge can take one, too. Kinda weird that it isn't a option for the Assault Sarge, though, given the rest of the chapter tactics.

Planes wrote:

Paz wrote:

Planes wrote:

Paz wrote:I'm running forgeworld chapter tactics, because I love me some fire hawks (and I started the army waaay before fw released the rules). I don't feel it takes more than 30 seconds to tell the other guy what it does, and that should be happening before the game starts.

Chapter Tactics: Fire Hawks -- So I heard you like flamers...

You know who likes flamers more? Salamanders.
Guess who can take hand flamers? Only independent characters.
Not saying fire hawks aren't pretty sweet, but by no means are they overpowered.

Almost every Sarge can take one, too.  Kinda weird that it isn't a option for the Assault Sarge, though, given the rest of the chapter tactics.

Are you serious? Who would take a hand flamer on a tactical Sarg or devastator sarg?

The only reason hand flamers would be useful in a chapter built to use vanguard and assault marines is for those sarg's to take said weapons, and neither can. There for fluff, for dat double hand flamer wielding cheap captain or chaplain, and so you dont see peeps spamming vanguard with all hand flamers to ruin ppl's days, another nice addition by FW that isn't silly broken.



On Topic- Dallas hardly ever really plays those silly lists, and if we ask him not to (or Ian does, he's terrified of dem gingerballz) then he won't.

Isn't a handflamer a pistol? Gunslinger!

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It's true, Dallas always asks, "Mark, do you think this is too cheesy?"

For sure.. and I think 95% of us here are like that, its just the events wheee things might pop up. Im sure othrr communities are similar.. and the main reason were starting to see some ban lists creeping up for the big events.

GW is happy right now to just pump out as much stuff as they can and just see what sticks.. the communties are going to bave to do the majority of policing on this one.

part of it is that for the last few years, the 40k community, as a whole, has bitched that they want more rules to do this, we want to use that, make it so we have the option of doing this and this if we want to, and this year, hey; GW reveals that they were listening all that time and release all this massive content that covers letting us do everything we asked for.  we can make an allied force of imperium that fight together.  we can make that sweet themed list of an inquisitor leading a deathwatch detachment (sternguard, vanguard, kantor, scouts).  we can field that superheavy we bought 10 years ago and never use past a paperweight cause no one plays apoc around here.  we as gamers bitched, alot, for them to add all these features into the game to make it "more fun" and welp, we got what we asked for and have to accept we asked for this.  not that certain people here asked for half of this stuff, but the overall worldwide community did.

as an aside, the surprising backlash the escalation book has gotten from said community, and the larger tournament circuits debating banning it, has resulted in hearsay that in january GW will be releasing a statement, (or errata), stating that escalation is being change into not an expansion/update of the core rulebook like stronghold is to its building rules, but rather an optional expansion to offer alternate playstyles like Planetstrike and Cities of Death.  meaning within a month or two, the debate about superheavies will become moot as it'll resolve itself for us; nobody here ever brings a planetstrike or cities of death army to a tournament, afterall. 

it would be interesting, but there's that chance to abuse it since many new codexs come with a unit that's just too good to be played with an alternate FOC that allows extra heavy or elite slots to be taken.

there's also the fact that escalation's overall rules will be outright ignored like the use of mysterious terrain/objectives.

At some point the FoB folks or whomever will come out with a good restricted/ban list that we can adopt for local tournaments and it will all work its way out.
Things like 0-1 baleflamers, banned or reworded Grimoire of true names, etc.

The 40k internets are going wacky today.. basically about the same stuff we've been discussing here.