Doubles Tourney?

Fucking Shitballs.

End Rant.

====

In all seriousness, as long as an army is battle brothers with itself in this type of setup, my level of caring is low. Not sure why Tyranid players are so hard done by, unless they completely suck. There are two highly competitive tyranid builds right now. ('gaunt spam, flyrants & swarmlord)

Ive got no problem with the matrix personally. I hate grey knights with necrons .. but otherwise i dont mind it.

view this with the tyranids, other codex's can take allies that can negate lots of their armies weakness's. grey knights take necrons because necrons can kill any armor and have great flyers. an elite marine force can take guard squads to bolster its numbers. tyranids cant do that. trouble with armor? suck it up til next nids codex as your army has no friends. if everyone for team tournaments were allies of convenience it would work better imho. plus the rules were made so you cant divide a force org between 2 armies. a chaos marine player can take 3 helldrakes and have a friend with daemons take 3 daemon princes. you cant take that many with just a daemons allied with chaos force but you can with this setup.
i want to keep ranting... but i'll shut up now lol.

I've been glancing at this all day between work, and around supper and while rocking my son to sleep.....

I could address all these comments directly, but I think I can sum up the main issue. The Allies matrix. I'm gonna make 3 points and if anyone can PM a REASONABLE, RATIONAL rebuttal, I'd appreciate it.

1) I agree the allies matrix has issues. Imperials have lots, others not so much. Tyranids overlooks genestealer cults. If you actually go thru it, you wind up with about 3-4 "groups" that can ally fairly freely, and Nids end up on the outside. It is not balanced. I should point out, neither are the Codexes (Cedecii?)

2) Setting up and running a tourney isn't hard, but its by no means easy. Between tweaking setup, missions, working out scoring..... and adding in work, kids, etc, it can be a bit much at times. I'd like to think its worth it.

3) This is were I get my rant mode, and the only place I will address any of the issues above.

We use the allies matrix in the League. Noone has had an issue with that.
We use it in tournaments. Mark just ran one. Noone had an issue with that.
We DID NOT use it at the team tourney for some very good reasons. Teams would be limited to basically Imperial, Eldar based, Chaos based, or monobuild. In particular the logistics of a Tynanid player finding 3 others was an issue.

THIS IS A 1500-1750 POINT TOURNEY WITH ONLY MINOR CHANGES TO FOC. It is basically the same as having a 1750 list with allies and letting your buddy run the allies. Yes there are differences in FOC, but thats basically it.

NOONE has given Robyn shit for using the allies matrix in the league.
NOONE has given Mark shit for using the allies matrix in his tourneys.
NOONE has brought up the issue AT ALL..... except when I suggest a tourney that is based around it.

So yes, I do consider this "giving me shit". Because that is in fact what it is. I am trying to run a fun event for as many people as possible, and people start bitching that it "nerfs my army".

Give me the basis of Tyranids allying with anyone, other than the hypernarrow example of Genestealer cults. Please. Show me why you argue over this EVERY FUCKING TIME. Your armys fluff is that they devour anything standing in their way.

As for Chaos players being nerfed. Please see Jesse's example and the fact you can ally with Guard and have Drake/Vendetta.

I do not base my tourneys on one off shit I find on someones bullshit webpage. I have based them off major tourneys such as Adepticon, 3++ con, and GW events. This tourney happens to be based off GW's own doubles tournament, which happens to be one of the more popular ones around.

NOW.

I tried to let this die down and all, but I'm basically royally pissed at the moment.
To the folks who feel the need to bitch and whine, please put up or shut up. Run a tourney. Run one while on a deadline at work and with kids at home, because it is something you enjoy. Run one, and then tell me how shitty of job I'm doing.
To the folks who enjoy my events and want to play the tourney, thank you and I'm sorry I'll be disappointing you.

Tourney is cancelled.

Robyn, kindly lock this thread so people can go on with their lives please.

Don't cancel it beau! If some people (pretty much only 1 person here and he can sit this one out) are bitching about how they don't get the shiniest new rules, they can S a D.
It's for fun guy(s), not a "how can I create the most retarded un-fun to play combo possible" (I'm looking at u Adam).
I think anyone who has a problem with how the allies is set up, can take a breather, and play a different game. 6th is here to stay, and any bitching about it is silly, it won't change anything, and you are bitching to ppl that enjoy it.
And if you have Tyranids, go talk to one of te 3-4 ppl here who do play. Not hard.
A small minority who disagree can take it to pm's. this is a interest thread about this, not a "whoa is me" complain-athon.

oi robyn. didnt say i wouldn't play only said i don't like the rules matrix. so far as i can see, you have only a single nay vote and 16 yes votes.

that sounds like enough peoples to run an event right there.

can't let dissenters get ya down, its only my not-so-humble opinion my good man(and scotts, but he only gets half a vote). screwed up fluff-based matrix or no, i still keep playing and i still keep winning far more games than i lose. If i was going to boycott anything based on the current rule set, I'd have pulled a Tim and quit playing altogether a couple weeks after my codex dropped.

Coteaz and Imotehk, trollin' the 41st Millenium in style!



On the topic of Nid allies, though, Aaron does keep mentioning this one bit in the fluff where the Tau came across a more intelligent Nid and tried to "Greater Good" it. I don't think it worked out very well in the end, but they tried! I would love to see Gene-Stealer Cults getting rules support again, though.

Let's hope GW keeps pumping those Codices out quick!

If you cant beat em join em? you only have to get what? 750 to 800 and some points painted in about two months? that really shouldn't be a problem. I have done that before so if I can get that done anyone can. This is a great chance to get a good start on a new army.

I like the idea of the allies matrix. This is going to bring out some really unique and wacky lists. Not just the same old same old.

I hope this tournament does get off the ground I was really looking forward to it when it was announced!

I don't mind constructive criticism. If you don't believe me, stay after one of my tourneys. I'm talking to folks about what went wrong and what can be fix and what's better. Jesse's comment about possible abuses falls there. Saying the allies matrix has issues or that Nids can only ally with themselves is like a treadmill: it gives you something to do, but you're right back where you started.

Like it or not this is an IDEAL setting for using the matrix, not for tossing it.

Robyn, paz and others: thanks for the support.

Jesse: your point is valid, but I have a rebuttal. What would the rest of that look like? You'd need minimum 1 Hq and 2 troops from each codex, plus 2 elites to unlock the 3rd hs and fa choices. 3 helldrakes are 510, 3 princes would be what? 700? I don't think it could be done at 1500, and I think it'd be difficult at 1750. ( Points do have to be equal between the 2 forces.)

On the matrix: as I said, even I think it has issues. GK and Crons shouldnt have ANY ally options IMHO, as they don't need them. Counts as armies throw off everything. If Kerr were to play, is he Chaos or Wolves? That said , I am certainly not reworking the matrix, unless I'm getting a nice fat check from GW ...

Give me a bit to post the full rules and cool down. We can see what will happen then.

Roland wrote:Jesse: your point is valid, but I have a rebuttal. What would the rest of that look like? You'd need minimum 1 Hq and 2 troops from each codex, plus 2 elites to unlock the 3rd hs and fa choices. 3 helldrakes are 510, 3 princes would be what? 700? I don't think it could be done at 1500, and I think it'd be difficult at 1750. ( Points do have to be equal between the 2 forces.).

And the way it's set up effectively stops this min-maxing cheese. Forcing a Chaos player to take an elites choice means... one dragon. I'm totally bringing one! Or Aidan is. Maybe Aidan can use it, I can teach him. "Son, fly this on, point it at some bad guys, burn 'em up."

Is like too but don't have enough points right now but I should by then and hope fully played a few more games
I've only played 2 so far

Rhaevyn wrote:oi robyn. didnt say i wouldn't play only said i don't like the rules matrix. so far as i can see, you have only a single nay vote and 16 yes votes.

that sounds like enough peoples to run an event right there.

can't let dissenters get ya down, its only my not-so-humble opinion my good man(and scotts, but he only gets half a vote). screwed up fluff-based matrix or no, i still keep playing and i still keep winning far more games than i lose. If i was going to boycott anything based on the current rule set, I'd have pulled a Tim and quit playing altogether a couple weeks after my codex dropped.

Most of my post was directed towards Scott and a little bit Jesse. I really wasn't taken exception with anything you had put up. The allies matrix as its printed.. is bizarre. I truly believe they could.have used as a tool that could.be shuffled and moved around.to.compensate.for army weaknesses etc. Instead they really just pieced sometjing together that has.no balance considerations at all.

At the same.time it does still give some neat options and a rules outline that coukd serve the basis for an interesting tournament.

I just dont like to see the backlash whens someone's trying to organize.an event and the negativity pushes it onto cancellation. No reason to act like that. Opinions sure.. whining and pouting . not so good.

actually camper, if you can find one of the guys here that's familiar with the rules, your collection right now is perfect for this tournament; that list i made for you has 1 HQ, 2 troops, 1 elite, 1 fast, 1 heavy. you just have to drop one of your wargear options on the spider so you're under the 750 point limit, and you're going to make your partner quite happy.

i can't be your partner though, cause i'd be helping beau run the event; but there's a few nice guys here who'd be willing to play with you and give you suggestions on what to attack with your dudes on each turn.

and for anyone who hasn't met or played camper yet; he's a cool kid and he picks up the rules fast. and he's got a very good sense of sportsmanship when playing. if one of you wants a nice friendly game at smaller points, or a partner for this tournament, don't be hesitant to play with camper.

bit of a side track, but figured i'd get that out there.

back on;

you're right robyn about it being thankless. after helping beau out a few times, i can totally see it. apart from "thanks! it was great. when's the next one?" there's not alot that beau gets in return. and i know he plans these alot. and well in advance. we'll be a month before the event, and he'll start bouncing ideas for what scenarios, scoring systems, etc, off me and asking what seems fair to play, and if there's gaps or loopholes he didnt catch looking through. the man is unbelievably good at organizing and setting stuff up, and anticipates hiccups and other issues that i never would've thought of until they hit. it's one of the problems my OCD gives me in and out of work. though beau even takes advantage of that and the results are those nice score sheets we've used at a few of the events.

but beau is a gamer like the rest of us. he's enjoys playing too. which is why it sucks there's only a couple organizers, and events are so far spaced apart. my main reason for helping beau out? i keep watching him and how he does all the scoring and table seeding to learn how. why? because i think more of us should give back and run more events so the organizers have a chance to play as well. in the last 10 events in the city, IIRC, 4 were events not run by beau, and he had to bail on at least 2 of them at the last minute for personal reasons.

it's like you said, there's no reason the events should be so spaced out like they are. we know there's players out there, darren's told us he sold 80 copies of the Big Grey Book in the first 3 weeks it came out. and that doesnt count the ones that skipped it and just went for the dark vengeance one. that tells me that even if the 10 event regulars cant all make it, there's enough players in the city to do an event every month at least.

the flames of war and warmachine guys manage it and look at their dinky models; ones smaller than our stuff (but takes as huge a board), the other only uses maybe 12 models on average and can play on a poker table. how can the single highest grossing game in the store not keep up or exceed them?

i myself intend to run a few interesting events once i've learned all the T.O. stuff so beau and mark have more opportunities to play the game instead of run it. i've asked around and i know there's interest in Zone Mortalis events (still thinking out the best way to make the boards for this that dont look cheap or break my wallet, but i havent mothballed the idea yet) and even a larger Apocalypse event (i'd like to possibly do 2 of those a year) but this i 1) dont need the score keeping know-how, and 2) im waiting for the new apoc book to come out in a month or so to see what they altered for 6th, otherwise i'd have run one soonish already. apoc isnt hard to do in one day; its just a single table that's gonna take a few hours. played a few 11k per side ones, and you can easily finish within 6 hours.

overall, i'm all in support of whatever beau decides to do. i just believe that certain people who cry for attention by declaring to the world they're not gonna sign up because they feel their favorite army is nerfed should stop their whining. like you said robyn, no one cares if you're not gonna come, so why pull childish crap like that every time that's just gonna upset the organizers. you may as well have walked up to beau in the park and slapped his face with a stinky fish and declared "texas sux! werdz!"

if you're not gonna play, or your not interested, that's fine, that's cool. it's your choice. but you dont have to go out of your way to say "im not playing, because boo hoo, my army, boo hoo."

But Texas does suck, that's why I move to Canada...

Ok.. ok.. I think thats enough.

Why do I feel like people always take things an extra step when we dont have to.

The initial reaction was too harsh... and now the reaction to.the.reaction is going.to far. Mike.. you more.or.less said exactly what i said.. but just added a bunch of extra stuff to take it into the rude realm.

See what i mean by thankless.. hehe. I still don't get a mention in Mike's post . or even Glover for hosting Tooncon last year. just him, Mark and Beau. Even the organizer's can be shaded.

Ouch my head hurts.

I'm eyeing up the concept of running something closer to August, but I need to do some more research in order to do it right.

Everyones always got a plan to.do.something.

Just do it! And.. stick with it. Dont start a campaign and quit.. dont start a competition and quit. Closure and conclusion and momentum and the biggest drivers for success.

If you have two people for your first event.. who cares.. make sure they have.fun. Ive had events with 30 people and events with 1.. It doesnt matter. What matters is follow through and commitment. Ive seen hundreds of people olanning events over the years.and only a few that ever happen. And then when they do happen.. they still sometimes stop or the organizer quits half way through. Drives... me... nuts.

Less talk.. more Do!

I'll have rules for doubles posted tonight, as well as scoring breakdown.

One small piece of advice.

If your putting in a proxy army.. it should be one thats very balanced.. if not even a bit easy to beat. Having a proxy means that one person/team wont get a bye.. but instead get to roll the dice instead.

The last doubles tourney we had to face that crazy 750 point list. Not only did the guys using them have to reference the codex a lot.. but 6 scoring units in a 750 list with a 3 wound fast moving armour 2 dude.. who you never faced before because hes.a couple weeks.old.. rough. The space marine army was great.. everyone.knows how to use marines.

Generic is the name of the game.

The proxy army will likely be DA or some flavor of space marines. Maybe Orks if I get them done.

I enjoyed running the few events that I had (I think around 2 years ago). But have been too busy with studies since. I also have experience with even organizing from theater in high school, as well as with BBYO and Scouts Canada.

It is a lot of work to get something to run smoothly, and I would like to thank All you guys for running the events that you do. Leagues and Tournaments are a lot of fun, and a great way to enjoy this hobby of 40k that we all share.

So thank to Robin, Beau, Mark for the events I was able to attend. =)

I don't know how to use marines =(

Edit: Also as an idea could 1999+1 be considered for the point limit?

Not trying to start a war (well... kinda... I do enjoy arguing...) just putting out my thoughts. Also I didn't realize you had to fill a the support roles (fast elite heavy) before getting to take a second/third and that entirely makes my point void.
And I know tyranids are everyone's most hated enemy, but it still sucks when your options are so one sided for team games.

heh, now i got an image of a guardsman and a hive tyrant trying to pick teams for baseball...
guard- "i'll take the marines"
tyrant- "i'll take... um... you all on...?"

Tyranid players... just take two swarm lords and win all your games.