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Timbo wrote:Yup, well worth the 21 points a model. Toughness 3, amazing armour, a sweet shooting attack. Sigh...

Yep its always nice that things like vendettas and fire dragons not being costed appropriately ruin the playability of other models

I would agree to an extent, however I don't think those are good examples. Fire dragons are fine for the cost. If units could split fire then they would be undercosted. As for the Vendetta it's definitely good, but every single new codex is going to be getting ack-ack vehicles and options which will all negatively affect the power level of the Vendetta. I think over the next year we'll see flier-heavy lists morph into infantry and/or hybrid lists as the power level shifts.

Timbo wrote:I would agree to an extent, however I don't think those are good examples. Fire dragons are fine for the cost. If units could split fire then they would be undercosted. As for the Vendetta it's definitely good, but every single new codex is going to be getting ack-ack vehicles and options which will all negatively affect the power level of the Vendetta. I think over the next year we'll see flier-heavy lists morph into infantry and/or hybrid lists as the power level shifts.

Fire dragons pay 3 points for meltaguns and everyone gets one along with having one of the best close combat stat lines for its class. They are the most undercosted unit in the game. What do scorpions or banshees do that fire dragons wont do better? Scorpions fight orks better maybe....depends how well the heavy flamer does

I'm not really sure how you came up with those numbers. An aspect warrior with a 4+ save and no gun is 13 points? I'll pass thanks. There is no unit in the game that fire dragons can fight in hand-to-hand except possibly grots or an IG squad. What are you talking about? A big unit is expensive overkill, and very specialized. They shoot 12" so will get assaulted or shot to crap after they vaporize one target. In addition the Eldar skimmer transports are made from paper mache now so they don't even have a reliable ride. Wave serpents have 3 hull points and armour 12 for over 100 points? Um, I'll pass.

Timbo wrote:I'm not really sure how you came up with those numbers. An aspect warrior with a 4+ save and no gun is 13 points? I'll pass thanks. There is no unit in the game that fire dragons can fight in hand-to-hand except possibly grots or an IG squad. What are you talking about? A big unit is expensive overkill, and very specialized. They shoot 12" so will get assaulted or shot to crap after they vaporize one target. In addition the Eldar skimmer transports are made from paper mache now so they don't even have a reliable ride. Wave serpents have 3 hull points and armour 12 for over 100 points? Um, I'll pass.

10 points for the statline and a pistol (which gets replaced by a special weapon in every army anyway). Gun for 3 melta bombs for 3 which is generous. Straight up better than storm troupers or guard vets (the closest comparable units in the game). They really should be about 22 points each....not to mention any other unit will probably pay 20 points for the heavy flamer not 3.

Fire dragons come in with 5 melta gun wounds on average, before heavy flamer and attacks. They will do way more damage than banshees or scorpions will do and are more than capable of beating up the remnants of whatever squad they shoot. There arent many cases that banshees or scorpions will suffer the same fate as fire dragons after they annihilate a unit.

160 points is not that expensive, especially when it will usually kill well more than it is worth. having 10 melta guns and a heavy flamer make it the most well rounded unit in the game aswell. It just doesnt deal with hordes which I am sure the rest of the army is more than capable of handling.

You are arguing that fire dragons are as good in hand to hand as striking scorpions and/or howling banshees. That is so insane I don't even know where to begin. Melta bombs are great except the fire dragons will destroy any vehicle they shoot at, leaving the grenades mostly worthless. If you want an exarch with a heavy flamer they are considerably more than 160 points btw. I suppose there are units that fire dragons could conceivably shoot and then finish in assault. Just about every unit in the game can shoot and finish off the fire dragons in assault. So what's your point? I don't recall lists with 30 fire dragons winning anything, ever. Although as mentioned previously, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the tournament scene outside of Saskatoon like some do.

Timbo wrote:You are arguing that fire dragons are as good in hand to hand as striking scorpions and/or howling banshees. That is so insane I don't even know where to begin. Melta bombs are great except the fire dragons will destroy any vehicle they shoot at, leaving the grenades mostly worthless. If you want an exarch with a heavy flamer they are considerably more than 160 points btw. I suppose there are units that fire dragons could conceivably shoot and then finish in assault. Just about every unit in the game can shoot and finish off the fire dragons in assault. So what's your point? I don't recall lists with 30 fire dragons winning anything, ever. Although as mentioned previously, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the tournament scene outside of Saskatoon like some do.

Im saying that the melta guns and heavy flamer do more than what scorpions or banshees will do in HtH. Its like having 9 chain fist attacks that always hit on 3s....at Init 10

and yes I forgot the exarch which is a wopping 12 points.

And I'm saying that you are so very very wrong. The wrongest man in Wrongtown. Striking scorpions and howling banshees will gladly shoot and then assault most units, in cover or no. Fire dragons can shoot and assault select units, in the open only. How often do you get to shoot and then assault an infantry unit in the open in 40K? I guess it could happen. Fire dragons are a specialized unit for killing vehicles and monstrous creatures (non flying ones ). That's it, that's all they do. They have a sweet spot of about 5-7 models after which they become overkill and too expensive. They take up an elite slot which means they have an opportunity cost. Arguing they have a good "close combat statline" is madness. I'll let you in on a secret, any model with str 3 toughness 3 attacks 1 and a 4+ save with no access to wargear does not have a good close combat statline.

Your example about the chainfist hits is clearly wrong as well. Those wounds do not count towards combat result. 10 fire dragons will struggle to defeat 4 tactical marines, assuming they killed the other 6 in shooting.

Jink save for all skimmers is cool though Tim. It's 4+ if you turbo boost.

I agree that a wave serpent is no Ghost Ark though.

Cant say anything good about non-assault non-open topped transport vehicles without firepoints in 6th edition.
rhinosdrive me nuts and they at least have fire points.

Rhaevyn wrote:Cant say anything good about non-assault non-open topped transport vehicles without firepoints in 6th edition.
rhinosdrive me nuts and they at least have fire points.

QFT. even with the boost to D-pods I can't really justify Devilfish APC's. Not quite enough shooting to make it worth the points and the squad inside has no impact until they disembark. kinda meh.

Devilfish Hater wrote:

Rhaevyn wrote:Cant say anything good about non-assault non-open topped transport vehicles without firepoints in 6th edition.
rhinosdrive me nuts and they at least have fire points.

QFT. even with the boost to D-pods I can't really justify Devilfish APC's. Not quite enough shooting to make it worth the points and the squad inside has no impact until they disembark. kinda meh.

ehhhh... Different. Here's my Fish argument.

12 dudes inside (that's the max right?) all with Pulse Rifles. Deploy it in reserve. When it comes on, drive up the field, turbo boost, enjoy your 2+ jink save. Third Turn, dump dudes on a mid-field objective and drop those 24 S5 shots on something (hopefully with some markerlight support).

If someone assaults you... you get overwatch.

If you've got an allied Space Marine or Eldar, you can haz that seksy overwatch at BS power.

Lore Weaver wrote:

Devilfish Hater wrote:

Rhaevyn wrote:Cant say anything good about non-assault non-open topped transport vehicles without firepoints in 6th edition.
rhinosdrive me nuts and they at least have fire points.

QFT. even with the boost to D-pods I can't really justify Devilfish APC's. Not quite enough shooting to make it worth the points and the squad inside has no impact until they disembark. kinda meh.

ehhhh... Different. Here's my Fish argument.

12 dudes inside (that's the max right?) all with Pulse Rifles. Deploy it in reserve. When it comes on, drive up the field, turbo boost, enjoy your 2+ jink save. Third Turn, dump dudes on a mid-field objective and drop those 24 S5 shots on something (hopefully with some markerlight support).

If someone assaults you... you get overwatch.

If you've got an allied Space Marine or Eldar, you can haz that seksy overwatch at BS power.

its not a bad plan, but a couple of things to remember. first that 2+ jink is only versus things further than 12" away so you have to be very careful how close you are getting. Also if a skimmer is turbo-boosting and dies doesnt something horrible happen to the passengers? not to mention without the powers that unit is eating 205 points base with no additional wargear and just the fish with a d-pod. with powers you are looking much higher depending on which psykers you are taking. Not impossible or even bad, just tricky. dont know if ive gotten enough practice to pull it off. oh and with my dice those shots are very dependent on markerlight support.

Lore Weaver wrote:

Devilfish Hater wrote:

Rhaevyn wrote:Cant say anything good about non-assault non-open topped transport vehicles without firepoints in 6th edition.
rhinosdrive me nuts and they at least have fire points.

QFT. even with the boost to D-pods I can't really justify Devilfish APC's. Not quite enough shooting to make it worth the points and the squad inside has no impact until they disembark. kinda meh.

ehhhh... Different. Here's my Fish argument.

12 dudes inside (that's the max right?) all with Pulse Rifles. Deploy it in reserve. When it comes on, drive up the field, turbo boost, enjoy your 2+ jink save. Third Turn, dump dudes on a mid-field objective and drop those 24 S5 shots on something (hopefully with some markerlight support).

If someone assaults you... you get overwatch.

If you've got an allied Space Marine or Eldar, you can haz that seksy overwatch at BS power.

for bad tactical advice. Mark, Mark, Mark, you want to drive your Tau full bore towards the enemy and get close enough to rapid fire while staying out of 12' for the bonus jink save? Other armies move too right? Then, lets say those fire warriors magically get out on their own (instead of wrecking), they are now unsupported and FIRE WARRIORS. They won't do enough damage and they will die to any type of shooting or assault. Please don't rely on over watch. If there's 12 left (which there wouldn't be) thats 4 hits and 3 wounds on marines, wow, one dead MEQ. And you plan on having your allies roll the exact power you need for your games?

It'd be a better idea if Tau were 8pts a fire warrior. Why are they so expensive.

Looking at it, it looks like Immobilized counts as wrecked, but nothing else bad happens. It's the flyers where the occupants take a S10 hit with no armour saves allowed (not even invul)

You wouldn't want to go across the whole board, you'd want to fly on and move towards a mid-to-back-field objective, supported by other units (maybe suits of some flavour)

I can't believe in the ~15 years of playing Eldar I never realized that Fire Dragons are awesome close combat troops!! How the hell did I not figure out that Str3 attacks clearly sweep away all the competition...

@Stash - Are you still upset that Fire Dragons were good in 3rd edition when they could shoot out of Faclons? That's the only way to explain your absurd fixation on a unit that no one has been afraid of for 5-6 years. Are Chaos Chosen the best unit evar! since they can have 5 guys with melta too?? Jesus man, get your head out of the clouds.

It gets even funnier when you try to say that Fire Dragons are better than IG Vet's. One scores; one doesn't. One has access to an awesome, cheap transport; one rides around in the most expensive out-of-date tin can and has zero ability to shoot out of it. But your right in saying that if 10 Tactical Marines were crossing the street the Fire Dragons could walk over and nuke 'em, not like Vet's who could also shoot them, throw a demo charge...oh wait, the Vet's can...

Lore Weaver wrote:It'd be a better idea if Tau were 8pts a fire warrior. Why are they so expensive.

Looking at it, it looks like Immobilized counts as wrecked, but nothing else bad happens. It's the flyers where the occupants take a S10 hit with no armour saves allowed (not even invul)

You wouldn't want to go across the whole board, you'd want to fly on and move towards a mid-to-back-field objective, supported by other units (maybe suits of some flavour)

i know, thats why i just said it'd be tricky. actually it wouldnt be a bad late game trick versus anything without a 3+ save for clearing objectives. versus things like eldar/de/orks/ig those shots would put some serious hurt on. I just think i'd have a hard time of it. it'd be the kind of thing i'd try out in non-league testing games.

oh and tau are overcosted since its been two editions now without an updated codex. just standard codex creep. not a huge deal, if they get a new one next year i am so taking a week off work and just living at the den roflstomping people with "these stupid beardy tau".

What I like about Stash and Tim's discussion is that we got to read it! And witness Stash's crazy! They were probably literally 20 feet away from each other during that debate.

i'm almost tearing up. just like old times

LOL. True dat Ryan. I went upstairs to ask him if he was being serious, but I think he was too busy typing to answer me. Anyhow, back to painting up my obviously broken 30 fire dragon army.

Timbo wrote:LOL. True dat Ryan. I went upstairs to ask him if he was being serious, but I think he was too busy typing to answer me. Anyhow, back to painting up my obviously broken 30 fire dragon army.

with how awesome they are you should totally double force org that up to 60!

Aegwymourn wrote:

Timbo wrote:LOL. True dat Ryan. I went upstairs to ask him if he was being serious, but I think he was too busy typing to answer me. Anyhow, back to painting up my obviously broken 30 fire dragon army.

with how awesome they are you should totally double force org that up to 60!

Imagine how much hurt they'd lay down. With those nice 10-man units, you can multi-assault. *ROAR*

Their Wave Serpent rides would be a lot better if he'd magnetize them. Idiots:)

Roland wrote:Their Wave Serpent rides would be a lot better if he'd magnetize them. Idiots:)

Robin.

this board needs a ranking system Beau totally deserves a +1 here.

Hehe.. Ohhh.. Mike is gonna be hearing about that one for a loooong time.

Prob as long as Stash can complain about Lemans..

No! Bad Robyn.. No more bringing up Lemans..