X-cam league rules

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X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:44 am

Here's a little outline of what I had mentioned about a potential X-cam league next time around.

I went through their scenarios and points alottment, and I've got some major problems with some of them. First and foremost being that the majority of scenarios use victory points, which Id like to stay away from.

www.thed6generation.com

So, before the next league I'll have alot of work to adjust things, but you can definitely take a look at the .pdf's and get a feel for it's going to work. All the base rules will still be applicable, I just plan on altering the scenarios they have listed.

Check it out and let's here what everyone thinks.

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Last edited by System Commander on Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Timbo on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:01 pm

I'm not a huge fan of victory points either. I think the kill points/objective system is simple, yet elegant. Kill points versus victory points forces players to take larger units in general, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:27 pm

i love victory points in my opinion. it is the only thing fantasy has that is better then 40 k. but you are right we need more scenarios.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:42 pm

System Commander wrote:So, before the next league I'll have alot of work to adjust things, but you can definitely take a look at the .pdf's and get a feel for it's going to work. All the base rules will still be applicable, I just plan on altering the scenarios they have listed.

Check it out and let's here what everyone thinks.

System Commander

Um, question, where are these pdf's to look at?

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:55 pm

www.thed6generation.com

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:32 pm

Oh ok yeah, I've taken a look at those pdf's I thought you'd applied them to 40K and had some rough drafts for us to look at and consider. Nevermind. =P

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:16 am

They have their 40k pdf's up now. Those are the ones Im talking about.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Justin Buhler on Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:28 pm

Ah, I see now. First problem, as a Tau player I took issue looking at the Recon organization chart as I have literally no army to field. a Shas'El has three wounds, Broadsides have 2+ armor saves and Hammerheads have 35 combined armor, thus the only HQ possible is an Ethereal (fat chance in a Recon mission) and the only HS choice is a Sniper Drone Team (which I don't have), and given the 0-1 restrictions on the rest of my options I'm left with almost 0 options for dealing with vehicles (One unit of three crisis suits which I think I'd have to deck out with Fusion Blasters and Missile Pods or TL Missile Pods or TL Fusions Blasters. Problem here is Crisis Suits are more appropriately used to deal with heavy infantry, not vehicles. The other option are Piranhas with Fusion Blasters but once again I don't own any and I don't particularly like them, thus problems again). Although, looking through other codexes I don't see a lot of vehicles even being present, so maybe I'm overreacting. Other than my Tau rant, so if not VPs I'm assuming we'd use the objective markers as being equivalent to a certain VP value depending on the number of objectives and the force level of the armies? Or I was thinking, although this would be a more complex method, have a mixed system. In my mind, HQ's would be worth their cost in VPs, Elites and Heavy Support would be worth half their VPs, the rest of the armies' values would be pooled together and equally distributed into any objective markers.

(EDIT: I missed the part where Recon missions are max 555 pts, so my example below is useful only as an example)
Example:
Both Armies are playing a Recon at 900 pts.
Tau Army has no HQ, 3 Crisis Suits with Missile Pods, Fusion Blasters and two Shield Drones worth 202pts, three Fire Warriors Squads, two Piranhas and two Sniper Drone Teams (as one slot) worth 160pts. Thus, 101pts would be invested in the Elite, 80pts in the Heavy Support, 719pts in the Objectives.
Dark Angels Army has a Chappy with Jump Pack worth 120pts, 5 Svouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles and a Heavy Bolter for 115pts, one Marine squad with Rhino (I know, unrealistic given the troop heavy emphasis of objective based missions, but let's roll with it), 5 Assault Marines with two Plasma Pistols, Sarge with Plasma Pistol, Combat Shield and Power Fist for 205pts, and a 5 Devastators with 4 Heavy Bolters at 175pts. Thus, 120 is invested in the Chaplain, 57.5 pts is invested in the Scouts, 87.5 is invested in the Devastators leaving 635pts in the Objectives. For the sake of simplicity both players agreed before the round to take the .5 off the Scouts and make the Devastators worth 88 pts.
There are three objectives. The combined objectives pool is 1354 (719+635), thus each objective is worth 451.3 VPs. Either through random d3 rolling or by picking the objective furthest away from either table edge one of the objectives gets the remainder and is worth a whole 452 VPs! The others are worth 451.
Thus, each armies targets are such: for the Tau: 120 for Chappy, 57 for Scouts, 88 for Devastators. For the Marines: 101 for Crisis Suits, 80 for Sniper Drones. For both: two Objectives worth 451 VPs, one Objective worth 452 VPs. I predict an epic stuggle for that 1 VP. =P

So yeah, what I was trying for here is sort of a slanted balance towards objectives but also taking into account that HQ, Elites and Heavy Support are going to be difficult units to easily replace if lost, thus they should be more tantalizing targets for enemy generals other than simply removing a potent threat from their enemies arsenals. So that's my thoughts on that. Criticisms are as always welcome.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  gluvzer on Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:27 pm

Sweet! Criticisms welcome! Well, your Tau rant is no good. You are playing a 500pt game. Tau are BEST at small point fights. 10 pts for a range 30 str 5 AP5 gun with a 4+ save guy holding it. Take fire warriors to kill infantry and light vehicles/transports and battlesuits to kill everything else. Trust me you will have no problem. Your opponent wouldn't know what to do facing 30 fire warriors in a 500pt game.

BUT, I did see your edit that you did not see the 555pt max rule so I don't know if your problem still stands.

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i love the x-pac idea.

Post  Gulsnick on Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:50 pm

I think the Vp idea is good.
here is my reasoning.
A win is still determined by the victory conditions (objectives, kill pionts etc.).

Recon missions
now i can go for a kick your butt attack and if i kill almost everything , i get 4-5 recon points, but if you get the win , you get 5 bonus points. So you see this balances out verry nice .

Strategic missions
i kinda like the way this one works out to. as the defender you do not care about the winning for yourself (eg, no bonus points for you) , but you might care about it to stop your openent from getting them. So you have to decide wether to just go for more recon/ strategic points , or prevent the chalenger from getting the bonus points.
the only thing here , is i might up the gain for chalenging and winning a bit ( eg 7- 10).

Control mission.
again , the same as the strategic, do you go for the win? and avoid the chalenger the control point ?, or do you got for some strategic points.

over all i like how this works out , the attacker has a harder time to the bonuses, and the defender can choose wether to try stop him , or try to rack up some points as the attacker over extends himself trying to claim his objectives.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:31 am

Justin, your post hurt my brain. I was reading it but got lost when it got to the 452.5 victory points. I think I understand though, but it would be a huge mess to start dividing victory points that way. It was a problem the old way in some cases, this way would cause brain hemmorhages. The D6 Generation guys dont play alot of 40k.. they are familiar with it and the new rules, but for some reason got stuck on victory points for the scenarios which I think is completley wrong.. especially for small point games. Objectives are best for small point more so than anything else. The thing about objectives is you can do it for anything. Table quarters are now objectives. You can have a old recon.. now the objectice if his deployment zone.. and you can keep going on and on. If you played in the food bank tourney, I had 4 40k in a flash like scanerios, all different from the book but all using objectives and Ithought they were pretty fun. I like that there is no calculator on the table anymore.. just count up objectives and thats it.

I'll work on something here thats a bit more manageble, and more in line with the new edition. Expect the same thing, but it will be something like 60 recon points for a major victory, 40 for a minor vic, 20 for minor loss, 0 for major loss. Then, you get all the regular points for agreeing to play the game, and for painting, etc. I have to get the numbers balanced better, but you get the idea.

Im still not sold on the idea os using 40k in a flash like rules for the recon missions... but it might work out ok. You can play a couple games in one night for recon points.. and will stillhave to play the strategic missions later anyway. *shurgs* I guess it seems like it should work good.. it would be great for the story like themse the campaign is supposed to convey anyway. What do you guys think? Maybe alter the numbers a bit. Recon up to 1000, Strategic 1000-2000. Control missions 2000+, but you have to play an aplocalypse game? Something like that?

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Veyure on Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:51 am

It sounds like a good idea, but what about those people who want to play a new movie and don't have the points totals to play. might limit who can play. But points totals are always easy to negotiate though.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:41 pm

Well, thats the one big change is that you'll be able to sign up with one army, and play it all the way through. If you start a new army (im guesisng thats what you meant), youll ha ve to wait until the new league starts up or start all over again! I think the rule of sticking with one army the entire way through will be mandatory to get that campaign like feel.

The only other thing I haven't decided on yet is an end point. Do we go until one person gets 4 control points.. do we we play for three months and whoever has the most control points at the end wins.. ? Do we still have playoffs with the top 4 guys in control playing it out at the end? Not sure what to do about that quite yet.. need some more discussion!

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Guardian Angel on Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:47 pm

Personally, I would say that after X amount of time, the top 4 player enter a playoff. 1 vs. 4 & 2 vs. 3. There would have to be some bonus points based on your rank.

It would basically be the final climatic battles for control of the "planet" or whatever.

As well, I think I mention earlier....i would skew the points a bit differently....

--> 900 or less -- Recon
--> 901 to 1799 -- Strategic
--> 1800+ -- Control

That way you do not have to try to play an Apoc game for your control games.....but it could be interesting to play an Apoc game. Thinking about it again....letting the titan's throw down would be kinda fun....but you might need to put a limit on it. Say...Add a "Apoc Unit" Support slot....probably be 0-2.....to the Force Org chart. This way, Flyers, Ttians and Superheavy could show up, but not be the whole army.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Veyure on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:30 pm

I like the idea of apoc stuff on the table. it would give people reason to buy, build and use SH tanks and such. i wouldn't mind trying to build the silver tower of Tzeentch but i just don't have a reason to use it right now, or even to collect a T-son warcoven or some such force. don't drop the apoc idea. maybe reserve them for the playoff though, sorta like you comit the most powerful parts of your force for the final push...

Either way i think it would be a great change from the usual show up and kill your opponent for a major win style. would add a bit of story to the battles.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:37 pm

I dont think there would be a problem with all control games being an Apoc game. All Apoc games are objective based.. you can mix in units, etc. The major thing would be lets say you did play a 2500 apoc game. I want to bring my baneblade.. and blam, theres a 1/4 of my list. They are tough, sure.. but my baneblade got taken out by one damn stormtrooper.... two melta gun hits..

Id love to see more Apoc games being played. I need an excuse to build myself a Doomsday device.. (new datasheet out for Chaos this week).

Keep in mind that even under an Apoc game, you dont need to bring any Heroic units at all.. and I think in encourages people to be able to play with alot of those junky units you wouldnt normally take. For me.. Possessed is the best example. I love em, but to expensive for a regular game.. perfect for Apoc!

Thats the way I see it right now at least... but with some good discussion I can change my mind easily enough.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  smackman on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:11 pm

My concern is that a 3000+ pts game is going to take over 3hrs which would limit playing at the den. Altho I might have to sit out this anyways as I only have 3500ish pts of chaos and my tau and orks are both 2000 pts at best...

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Veyure on Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:21 pm

3000 wasn't mentioned as the minimum. he just said 2000+ which means all your armies are usable.

a lot of people spend 3 hours playin at the den on league night. You just gotta make sure that your opponent doesn't drag the game. and also apoc games can be played using a time limit as well which could also help with timing issues.

Maybe i should read the xcam scenarios sometime. maybe ill have some more ideas instead of just responses to ideas...

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  System Commander on Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:34 am

Hehe.. yeah, go reead them!

If you were playing a control mission and an Apoc game, which you wouldnt have to.. I would suggest not playoing on a league night if you were playing a 3000 point battle a side. There is no way youd get your game done. Youd have to play on a weekend afternoon or something.

I think you all have to go read them first then we can all talk about it.. Smile

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Veyure on Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:26 pm

Ok, so i read them and i like the idea. I didn't read the scenarios though, since you said you were going to change the scenario list.

I think in regards to the recon points, they should be awarded based on the main objective. What i mean is if the mission calls for objective points then X amount of recon points per objective held. If it is a kill point mission, then X amount of recon points for each kill point.

Strategic points should be a little more difficult to gain. those could be award based on a major win/loss sort of deal.

With this idea then recon points can still be gained during strategic missions like the design.

Im not very good at scenarios, but when i get a chance to review them, i will let you know what i think we could do.

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Re: X-cam league rules

Post  Mr Anderson on Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:31 am

Well I like the idea of the format. It really makes the games more interesting and worthwhile if they're linked together in a long campaign like this. Plus I like the idea of the 0-1 Heroic units for the Control battles that Ryan suggested.

Though now I'm really going to have to get my butt going and get my sisters painted up for this thing.

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Re: X-cam league rules

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