Escalation

Rhaevyn wrote:it may make necrons  cry because they rely on so much str 6 and 7 shooting, but i'm not scared.

*cough*Gauss*coughwheazephlem*

Mike: how do you feel about A/V12 superheavy flyer? More telling, how DP you think the avg player will feel about it?

Your right Beau, thats scary

Depends on how much firepower the flyer has tbh. but its definitely going to be able to destroy some stuff. all the best flyers currently have av 12. Mark knows, i played three of them against him the other day and it didn't go well =/ Flying is a whole other line of defense.

my army is probably best suited to facing a super heavy flyer, and even I'll take 2-3 turns to put enough hits on it to bring it down.

It has a d weapon, ultiple lasC, and can carry a 10 man termie sqd with attached characters as an assault vehicle.

Basically, you need flying melta and las. The storming might work

the only saving grace i guess, is if your playing 1500 points, you can probably mop up whatever else he has on the table and then spend the game spreading your stuff out so the pieplates can't remove you from the game. 8-900 points still seems like an awe-full lot of your army tied up in one model. no matter how resilient.

The game Dan and I did was 2500. A t hawk with a Libby and 5 thunderhammers is 1250.

Roland wrote:The game Dan and I did was 2500. A t hawk with a Libby and 5 thunderhammers is 1250.

As I said, go nuts.  In a 1500 point game that leaves you 250 for some scoring things.

Edit: Mike, quite expertly, took out many of my anti-flier stuff. That game was super close, if it ended on turn 5, I'd've had ya!

Mark I agree. At low points it's probably not worth it. And with how much lance is out there right now you are paying points to have more vp available to give up.

see, that's the escalation part. at 2500 points, i'm hoping to have enough stuff to deal with things like that. at 1750, i can field a drake, a vendetta and a Storm eagle and still fit in enough other stuff to be dangerous. at 2500, i'de probably have a squadron of 3 vendettas. plus some other stuff.

I dunno, i'm trying to have faith in the points system. no matter the FoC swaps, no matter the allies chart. you and I are bringing the same number of points to the table and hopefully that balances out. We as players keep asking for more customizability, we want rules for all our models and cool ways to field them. and now we are reaping what we have sewn.

reading through my apoc book, noticed tom was slightly off on the D6 chart for vehicles.

here's how a D weapon works now:

if shooting at a vehicle or building, the following chart occurs:
1 = clipped - target suffers a single penetrating hit (in the case of targeting another super heavy, if the pen results in an Explodes! [50/50 odds], instead of exploding, it simply loses an additional Hull point as you cant auto-explode super heavies)
2 to 5 = Solid hit - Super Heavies will lose D3+1 Hull Points. any other vehicle type will suffer an Explodes! immediately.  Buildings suffer a Detonation! immediately.
6 = Devastating Hit - same as a solid hit, with Super heavies instead losing D6+6 Hull points.

if shooting a non vehicle target, roll as follows:
1 = Lucky Escape - nothing happens to the unit.
2 to 5 = Seriously Wounded - lose D3+1 wounds.
6 = Deathblow - lose D6+6 wounds.

all D weapons happen to be AP 1, so no armour saves allowed. however, not all D weapons are Barrage type, so you can take cover/stealth/shrouded and invul saves, as these are not specifically mentioned as being unallowed to be taken against the D weapon.

looking at the results, most often you're likely to only cause a single unit to lose 3 models per hit with a D weapon, assuming the law of averages in your dice rolls.

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based on the rumors from nafka saying Reavers, Mantas, and Hierophants are not allowed, i'll make a more thorough list of the super heavies i'd guess to be in Escalation based off the number of HP, Wounds, Point Cost of the mentioned disallowed units; the previous list was just a short incomplete one on my lunch break.

Baneblade (525):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 9; AP 2; Primary Weapon 1, 10" Blast

Banehammer (410):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 8; AP 3; Primary Weapon 1, 7" Blast

Banesword (430):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 9; AP 3; Primary Weapon 1, 10" Blast

Doomhammer (420):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 10; AP 1; Primary Weapon 1, 5" Blast

Hellhammer (540):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 10; AP 1; Primary Weapon 1, 7" Blast

Shadowsword (455):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 2; Primary Weapon 1, 7" Blast

Stormlord (480):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 6; AP 3; Heavy 15(30 if it didnt move that turn)

Stormsword (485):
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 10; AP 1; Primary Weapon 1, 10" Blast

Thunderhawk (685):
FA 12 SA 12 RA 10 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Str 8; AP 3; Primary Weapon 1, 7" Blast
for 90pts, can upgrade to:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 2; Primary Weapon 1, 5" Blast

Lord of Skulls (888):
FA 13 SA 13 RA 11 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - Ranged - Str 8; AP 3  Melee - D Weapon; AP 1

Gargantuan Squiggoth (525): (not included)
T 8, W 8, Sv 4+
Strongest Weapon - Str 7; AP 4; Ordnance 1, 7" Blast

Stompa (770):
FA 13 SA 13 RA 12 HP 12:
Strongest Weapon - Ranged, Str 10; AP 1; Primary Weapon 1, 7" Blast. Melee, D Weapon; AP 1

[color=#ff3333]Phantom Titan (2500): (not included)
FA 13 SA 13 RA 12 HP 24:
Strongest Weapon - D weapon; AP 1; Primary Weapon 4, 5" Blast

Revenant Titan (900):
FA 12 SA 12 RA 10 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 2; Primary Weapon 2, 7" Blast

Barbed Hierodule (565):
T 8 W 6 Sv 3+:
Strongest Weapon - Str 10; AP 3; Assault 6

Harridan (735):
T 8 W 8 Sv 3+:
Strongest Weapon - Str 10; AP 3; Assault 6

Hierophant Bio-Titan (1000): (not included)
T 9 W 10 Sv 2+:
Strongest Weapon - Str 10; AP 3; Assault 6

Obelisk (335):
FA 12 SA 12 RA 12 HP 6:
Strongest Weapon - set of 4 Str 7; AP -; Assault 5 tesla weapons

Tesseract Vault (315 base): (price will vary as they must choose 2 weapons from a list, ranging from 60 to 200pts per weapon.)
FA 14 SA 14 RA 14 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 1; Primary Weapon 1, Mega Flamer template

Transcendant C'tan (420 base): (price will vary as they must choose 2 weapons from a list, ranging from 60 to 200pts per weapon.)
T 9 W 6 Sv 3+:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 1; Primary Weapon 1, Mega Flamer template

Reaver Titan (1450): (not included)
FA 14 SA 14 RA 13 HP 18:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 2; Primary Weapon 3, 5" Blast

Warhound Scout Titan (720): (not included)
FA 14 SA 13 RA 12 HP 9:
Strongest Weapon - D Weapon; AP 2; Primary Weapon 2, 5" Blast

I watched a battle rep with a rev titan in it and my first thoughts were that it was ridiculous and you literally need to tailor your list to defeat it. The movement and fire power seems over whelming.

the eldar titan is one of the better ones.

but yeah D weapons in 40k is gonzo stupid. ... just stupid.

see my rant from 6 months ago about the non-tactical game that 6th has become with gonzo stupid shit you can't do anything about... and insert it here with some exclamation marks.

dusktiger wrote:
all D weapons happen to be AP 1, so no armour saves allowed. however, not all D weapons are Barrage type, so you can take cover/stealth/shrouded and invul saves, as these are not specifically mentioned as being unallowed to be taken against the D weapon.

hate to break it to you, but...

"No saving throws of any kind are allowed against damage from a Destroyer weapon, including special rolls such as Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols."

your 5+ shrubbery and 3+ shield of immortality saves will do no good here. if your not a superheavy tank or a model with more than 3 wounds your hooped first shot most of the time.

D weapons just aren't nice.

In the previous apoc... there were no cover svaes on d weapons.

D blast weapons were terrifying..

Yeah and a rev titan is what? 4 large blast str d can move 36 inches and 9 hp? I'm having a hard time with eldar as it is with my orks.
Also does this mean that with the introduction of Lords of war can I take mek boss buzz gob, who comes on his own custom stompa that does not take a foc slot? Could be fun to sneak in two stompas haha.

Yeah d weapons are called that because they are dicks..

The Eldar titan is what, 900? That means you're dealing with 850 pts of farseer/dire avengers/wave serpents/ etc

As has been pointed out, this will quickly become the Superheavy vs what's left of your army. Which is paper/rock/scissors/lizard/Spock.

I'd say play test it a bit, and if any local gaming restrictions are made on super heavies, it's that the D weapons cannot be fired unless against another Super Heavy. Since the majority don't have a D weapon to choose from, or need to spend a large cost to upgrade to one, this should balance it out fairly well while still allowing the models on the table.

we could even make it some sort of fluff rule, like the Nikea Edict. make something up about how all the races have agreed not to use the D weapons on anything less than another Super Heavy because of the destructive firepower of the weapons.

that way, if anyone wants to play a super heavy that isnt one of the crazy ones with D weapons, like a Stormlord (probably the nicest tamest of them all), they can go ahead. and if their race only has access to a single one that has a D weapon, they just cant use the weapon on anything but another super heavy. the Revenant i believe had to upgrade to D weapons, and the Lord of Skulls and the Stompa both come with a Melee D weapon.

since you might want them to still go into melee, we could also go further and just make up a powered-down attack profile for the melee D weapons, like a Str 10; AP 1; Melee. of course, if doing that, we could even extend that to the ranged ones as well. any D weapons with AP 1 are now only Str 10, and any that are AP 2 become Str 9.

ideas. discuss.

Well, here's my book-only analysis. (I'll happily play a few games to prove this out)

Anything without a D weapon is terrible and a huge point sink that guarantees victory for your opponent.

Anything with a D weapon can kill vast swathes of an army in a single phase without any recourse, A single Revenant Titan could take on and beat an entire 2000 point army by itself. It's D weapon is that huge Apoc flamer with an 18" torrent, after it moves 36".

Lore Weaver wrote:Well, here's my book-only analysis.  (I'll happily play a few games to prove this out)

Anything without a D weapon is terrible and a huge point sink that guarantees victory for your opponent.

Anything with a D weapon can kill vast swathes of an army in a single phase without any recourse, A single Revenant Titan could take on and beat an entire 2000 point army by itself.  It's D weapon is that huge Apoc flamer with an 18" torrent, after it moves 36".  

From what I have read so far this is my conclusion as well.

I wouldn't generally have a problem facing one of the other superheavies, but the D weapons are just silly. 

What makes the Eldar Titan worse are the holo-fields. You have an extra 50% or 33% chance to miss just because? Which oddly enough makes it even better against other super-heavies since they would ignore an invulnerable save.

Putting in the rev and the t hawk, very poorly thought out. Past that I'm ok.

Still think showing up with a super heavy unannounced, is bad form.

Yeah I agree Beau and it is just really unplanned for by a decent chunk of our community I believe. I know that if our tournaments suddenly allowed them, and using one was nearly necessary to have a chance, not even at the top but at surviving your 2nd turn, it would probably be a while before I had one assembled and painted.

For curiosity sake, is the apoc blast template able to scatter off a model or is it just too big to miss?

I think for the time being.. if you plan on bringing a superheavy or a new fortification... just discuss it with your opponent ahwsd of time.

I played against a revenant a few times. I had a 5000 point list one game.. i fired everythibg at it for two turbs and did 2 structure points to it. It wiped out my army itself. Now.. it would of beeb different if Joe wouldnt have rolled 10 4+ saves in a row... he was blowing up 2-3 vehicles a turn..

The old guns were str D .. but largeblast.. not apoc blast. And it had two of those weapons.. but one shot each. It could fire at different targets though .. all superheavies could.

If hes 900 and the Lord of Skulls is 888.. i dont see how that measures up. Ohhhhh.. melee D weapon.. thats it !

I think that's good idea regardless. Let's ppl balance their list to each other.

Fortifications don't seem too bad. I wouldn't mind facing voidshields, might be interesting.

Just the big D cannon on the one is over powered.

I'm all for a few test games, if someone wants to whip out a baneblade or something.