Escalation

Well, Natfka.blogspot.com snagged some details

via Father Gabe from the Faeit 212 inbox.
I wanted to pass on information concerning Escalation and Stronghold Assault.  I had the opportunity to have these two books in my hands today.  I wanted to pass on the following information:

- For Standard (what some refer to as "regular") Warhammer 40,000
- Not Expansion (like Planetstrike, Cities of Death, etc)
- Lord of War choice is optional (like Fortifications, Allies)
- Rules governing Lord of War: If you use a Lord of War your opponent receives a +1 bonus to Seize the Initiative and for every 3 Hull Points or Wounds you cause on a Lord of War choice you gain +1 (like Slay the Warlord, First Blood, etc).
- I won't go into details concerning the data sheets but don't expect Reavers, Mantas or Hierophants.
- Rules governing Str D weapons, AV 15 and all other Apocalypse based rules remain the same, but now crossover to Standard ("regular") Warhammer 40,000.

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My gut reaction:  If you put a huge point sink on the board that's not scoring and can award me additional VP's, you go right ahead....  And +1 to seize too?  

Where's admiral Akbar when you need him.

Edit:  I have a tough time taking a Wraiknight, let alone a 800pt or more thing that's still gonna die.

Sounds like a decent tradeoff to me.

I dunno Mark. If you get 1-2 rounds of shooting with a Str D weapon(s).... 

I'm still not a fan. I think I am actually in favor of the current, "take everything!" motto, since then it is much harder for stuff to become obsolete (looking at you BT). But there is a reason why super heavies were something people didn't bring to 1500/1750/2000 point games. 

I suppose some people will have to playtest it and let us know how it goes. Also which armies you play against make a huge impact. My 'Nids for example might as well just pack up and go home. My Tau on the other hand probably not going to mind as much.

It SEEMS roughly balanced, my issue tho is this....

TAC list are dying. Badly. In 5th planning for enough anti-infantry vs anti-tank was, I don't want to say easy, but you could play a few game and know what to tweak.

6th threw that out the window. Now its anti infantry/vs light armor/vs heavy armor/vs flyers and now vs super heavies. It's almost impossible to balance all that.

Jesse and I brought this up, it's almost better now to just say "I'm thinking 1750, I'll play my Chaos Marines and I'm gonna bring a Lord of Skulls and a Heldrake for sure. That ok?" There might be some slight list tailoring, but wouldn't Marines fighting Orks take a few more flamers? It also gives your opp the opportunity to say "I don't have a superheavy, but I've got really good anti air. Feel free to take a second heldrake".

In short, if you let me know you're bringing it, I'm game. If you just drop in with one unannounced, bad form.

Would need some playtesting before allowed in tourneys, I think. Much like the advent dataslate formations.

How does Str D work in Apoc? Is it big blast remove from play kinda thing?

'Nids only option for AV15 would be to smash, reasonable chance to glance/pen with the re-roll. Is an 888 point monstrosity going to deal with 60+ gaunts that 3 tervigon's poop out?

We'll have to get a better look at what the exact units are.

But.. take for example the baneblade. Its big and mean but at armour 14.. hes coughing up a victory point fairly quick.. especially when compared to a landraider. And myself.. id rather take the 2 landraiders and a predator for the points. Plus.. what a target for puppet master.

Moreso then the ugly point cost.. im going to be much more scared giving away the vp.

I m not a fan of D weapons.. im sure if i faced even one in a regular game id be against scalation fairly quick. I played against Joes eldar titan once.. he cleared out my whole army more ir less by itself with his 2 large blast D weapons.. auto pens on vehicles and no cover saves for anything else.. eek. I couldnt bring myself to buy the apoc book this time around but im guessing they are more or less the same?

Lore Weaver wrote:How does Str D work in Apoc?  Is it big blast remove from play kinda thing?

'Nids only option for AV15 would be to smash, reasonable chance to glance/pen with the re-roll.  Is an 888 point monstrosity going to deal with 60+ gaunts that 3 tervigon's poop out?

They dint ba e a str.. they just more or less pen everrything. Against other super heavies they do a d6 structure points i believe. Tgeres alit if debate right now on the big new fortificatiom.. not sure if its the Redoubt or something elae.. but over 500 points and has its own D weapon. If it shoots at a baneblade or titan.. takes off structure points. If a D weaoon shoots at it.. in the current rules it will explode on a 2+. Not a good investment! Hopefully they get some rules in place to help it out.

Structure points aren't a thing anymore, they transitioned them over to Hull Points for a slightly more unified system. So a Baneblade and a Lord of Skulls both run 9 Hull Points.

Also for Str D weapons they cause multiple wounds on monstrous creatures per shot IIRC. Its not unreasonable for that template to one shot a tervigon/swarmlord. And from what I understand the easiest way to get Str D weapons is the warhound titan. It can rock one on each arm for a particularly low point cost if the whining on the internet is anything to go by.

So far this is the only "supplement" I am really against. I think the only way to do it is how Beau mentioned. At that point people can just say "yes/no" and it isn't an issue then.

Sorry.. thats what i meant.

So how does a D weapon work against a super heavy.. does it do a d6 hull points? I scanned the new book when it came out but i cant remember many of the changes.

d6:
1) Causes a Pen (the Destroyed! result simply causes another HP to be lost)
2-5) d3+3 Hull Points
6) d6+6 Hull Points

There is a similar chart for wounding, with the 1 result swapped out for "lucky miss".

So, if a FirePrism (lance brings down to AV12) hits a Baneblade, and rolls a 4 (Destroyed) what happens?

It'll be interesting to see this book. Not sure if I want to pay money for it though.

The pricetag is a bit high for a supplement book. I wonder if they included any actual unit profiles?

Lore Weaver wrote:So, if a FirePrism (lance brings down to AV12) hits a Baneblade, and rolls a 4 (Destroyed) what happens?

It'll be interesting to see this book.  Not sure if I want to pay money for it though.

Since its a supa eavy, it'd transfer down to "X" hull points. (3 I think)

Lore Weaver wrote:So, if a FirePrism (lance brings down to AV12) hits a Baneblade, and rolls a 4 (Destroyed) what happens?

The Pen itself causes a HP to be lost and a roll to be made on the Pen chart. "Destroyed!" comes up, and the superheavy rule intercedes and replaces it with a second Hull Point lost, for a total of 2 lost, putting the Baneblade a 7 HP remaining, assuming it was clean to start with.

For me.. i guess i really have no problem at all with Super heavies.. its the D weapons that really grind me.

Well, if it does get going out here, I'd just have to get a clean paint job on my C'Tan and magnetize his base to slot into a 60mm one to field him as a Transcendent.

I guess it depends on what 15 things they let you take. One jigger per army, two for some?

Baneblade seems likely. How did they do it in Astro? Tom M, did you play on that table?

From what I remember for the rules for the Baneblade it was fairly toned down.

No Str D weapons, only had 6ish hullpoints? I think it had roughly an earthshaker, a demolisher, and misc sponsons (heavy bolters and maybe a couple of lascannons).

edit - i didn't play on the table that was just from the information packet beforehand

the book includes all the rules for how to use them, the new FOC that includes them, and all the super heavy profiles they're allowing. they go on to mention specifically that not all of them are allowed, such as Reaver titans and the super bio titan 'nid.

shooting against a super heavy; each time you roll an Explodes! result, instead of blowing up, they lose D3 HPs plus the initial loss of 1 HP for taking the pen.

Baneblade, Banehammer, Banesword, Doomhammer, Hellhammer, Shadowsword, Stormlord, Stormsword, : FA 14, SA 13, RA 12, 9 HP

Thunderhawk: FA 12, SA 12, RA 10, 9 HP
lord of skulls: FA 13, SA 13, RA 11, 9 HP
gargantuan squiggoth: T 8, W 8
Stompa: FA 13, SA 13, RA 12, 12 HP
Revenant Titan: FA 12, SA 12, RA 10, 9 HP
(there's the phantom titan, but i dont see this one being allowed, just like the reaver: its a 24 HP titan)
Obelisk: FA 12, SA 12, RA 12, 6 HP
terreract vault: FA 14, SA 14, RA 14, 9 HP

very few of these actually have a D weapon, and most are sitting in the AV 13 mark. if you already sport alot of melta weapons, especially in pods, these are dead on your first turn since every pen you cause has a 50% chance to cause an explode result (AP 1 weapons have a 3/6 chance of an explode result), which means an extra D3 HP gets lost. you're looking at 2-4 HPs lost per melta weapon that causes a Pen.

also, there's nothing in the apoc book with AV 15. unless one of these new fortifications has that? but i'd assume they'd be like the existing stuff with is treated as AV 14 buildings. but again, many buildings are treated as AV 12 or 13 when you want to shoot them out from under an enemy.

Trany didn't make this list? Boo.

The new big beefy fort has av 15. I dont know if its the Firestorm Redoubt or a different one.. i have them confused in my brain.

We'll see how things shake out.. if its not bad.. i might be tempted to get the Lord of skulls.. *sigh*  just like GW wanted us dumb sheep to do. I dont want to.. but ts khorney.

Hopefully the rules really suck and i dont have to  

Tom: oh you mean Transcendent shard.... Thought you were talking bout slaanesh

If that's the list of allowables.... I am disappoint.

Nothing for sisters, non khorney chaos, grey knights, tau. Several of the allowables are weak. (Nids).

Also. Play a test game vs Dan's wolves and the t hawk. Then we shall discuss.

man, Ive liked the lord since I first saw the pics. 40k is all about silly shizz, and this is a classic silly model. but with the right paint job, itll look nasty.

I'de be temped to give the lord of war legs, lot of conversions out there that have done that. or maybe Just shoulder mount the giant gut cannon. the model just looks so polished and stiff to me =x


to the topic of the thread however... if someone wants to field an 800 point monstrosity in 6th edition, with hullpoints? you go for it. I still field 6-10 lascannons and 4-6 meltaguns every game, along with power fists and meltabombs. it may make necrons cry because they rely on so much str 6 and 7 shooting, but i'm not scared. the only vehicles that have any longevity in this edition are the ones that come with a jink or invul save. 9 HP? pfft, thats a couple rounds of combat for all the gonzo FMC that exist in this game. Riptides, wraithknights, Daemons. ..even marines now with grav guns. plink plink muthfucka plink plink