SM Q&A

Black Templar keep their allies matrix, no more "counts as" for SC's

http://natfka.blogspot.ca/2013/08/questions-answered-for-space-marines.html#more

Meh, a lot of what I am hearing is just ok for Black Templars. Makes me a bit of a sad panda. I'll probably still buy it just to have a copy. Depending on how it turns out a whole bunch of my regular looking BT might be converting to Imperial Fists though.

Lore Weaver wrote:Black Templar keep their allies matrix, no more "counts as" for SC's

http://natfka.blogspot.ca/2013/08/questions-answered-for-space-marines.html#more

The SC thing sounds silly. I hope it's not true that your paint job restricts you game-wise...

From what i've seen, its just certain special characters that are only available to certain chapters. so if your taking a BT special character, you have to play with the BT version of the list. so the paint doesn't restrict you, you can play whatever you like, but the rules subset is affected by your choices.

whereas before you could run special characters who's fluff placed them in two completely different chapters and blend thier rules together on the battlefield. i'm not sure this really affects anything, as BT had thier own book and characters anyway. I guess it will affect chapters like White scars, where you would be restricted to using khan or standard special chars.

I think like a lot of these rumors we'll have to see what the book actually says. Without seeing the actual rules quote its hard to make any kind of judgement call.

Although I'm with Gluvzer. Your painting preference shouldn't inhibit you in any way.

Aegwymourn wrote:I think like a lot of these rumors we'll have to see what the book actually says. Without seeing the actual rules quote its hard to make any kind of judgement call.

Although I'm with Gluvzer. Your painting preference shouldn't inhibit you in any way.

I don't think it will. No one is going to care if you play your BT as ultramarines. I think it's just try to stop people from taking ultramarine chapter tactics and a special caracter like Pedro. If anything it's going to cut some power gaming out of the picture.

I'm liking what I'm reading so far. Seems like it will be a good book with a TON of options. Grav cannon's sound redonkulous. I'm really glad they didn't do a giant MC release.

I don't think the Giant-MC would've been a good fit for the "feel" of a marine army, if that makes any sense.

Aidan'll be grabbing a copy of the book, I'm sure you can borrow it if you like Ryan.

I'm just waiting for a line of fluff along the gist of "Arkhand Land strikes again with a new find! A variant of the Knight class Titan thought lost to the ages! Having been debated over by the mechanicus for the past 500 years, it has finally been deemed pure and put into production for extensive use by the Adeptus Astarties under the designation "Land Knight"."

Thanks Mark, but I'll be picking up a copy of my own cause you never know...  It's been a long time since I've given GW any money.

It looks really interesting.

10 point combiweapons on Sternguard kinda sucks (if true), but with a 3 point drop in price overall, it is not the end of the world.

gluvzer wrote:Thanks Mark, but I'll be picking up a copy of my own cause you never know...  It's been a long time since I've given GW any money.

If you wanna drink some beer at my place and potentially play some 40k, lemme know.

Guardian Angel wrote:It looks really interesting.  

10 point combiweapons on Sternguard kinda sucks (if true), but with a 3 point drop in price overall, it is not the end of the world.

 

probably makes them more playable in the end. you can have more ablative bodies to product your weapon carriers.

I'm particularly interested in the EC. sounds like he gets multiple "stances" to use with the black sword. so two handed = 3 attacks, 6str ap2. at I5, 1h would be 4 attacks 5 str, ap2(3?). 2h stance sounds a lot like kharn, with less attacks and more defense.

Well in the Armageddon codex he could either 1-hand it for a +1 Strength power weapon or 2-hand it for a powerfist. When they got their stand alone codex they just made it a +2 Strength power weapon. I always thought that was a bummer. Sometimes it was nice to have that powerfist for walkers or Instant Deathing a character.

I myself am prety excited about a tac marine horde being a posible viable list

Gulsnick wrote:I myself am prety excited about a tac marine horde being a posible viable list

Only if they get access to the anti-heldrake tank.

Marines on foot still suffer from Heldrakes.

Indeed. Its one of the big things marines still lack. Rhinos are not tough enough and Land Raiders are to expensive. They almost need a Devilfish/Wave Serpent costed transport with a capacity of 10-12.

definitly 12.

one of the problems has always been fitting 10 guys in there ...and an IC. same problem the bog standard landraider has.

Well the sad rumor is that their drop pods are going back to 10 >.> no more 10 sternguard + Lysander in one pod.

Looking like only one chapter worth of characters so no more Pedro and Lysander bro fist.

if BT retain thier allies chart. you might be able to ally SM to SM. hopefully this is included, With most of the other supplements being able to ally with parent codex. i dont see why you wouldnt be able to do this with SM.

Rhaevyn wrote:if BT retain thier allies chart. you might be able to ally SM to SM.  hopefully this is included, With most of the other supplements being able to ally with parent codex. i dont see why you wouldnt be able to do this with SM.

I am pretty sure you can ally SM to SM (different chapters). I remember reading it in one of the rumours....it would kinda make sense too. Why could Ultramarines and Blood Angels ally....but not Salamanders and Ultramarines.

So um. lots of info out there. i have to say that ultramarines doctrines look super good. i'de probably take 3 units of devastators every game. relentless, reroll snapshots? flyers? what flyers?




via Zion at talkwargaming and 40k Radio
General Information:
*240 Points for 3 Centurions with Grav-Cannons/Grav-Amps and Hurricane Bolters (for those who hate math, that means it's a 20 point upgrade for Grav-Cannon/Grav-Amps each).
*Assault Centurions have Move Through Cover
*Codex: Space Marines is largely in line with Codex: Dark Angels points wise.
*176 Pages in their copy of the codex (same as rumored)
*Hunter has "Savant-Lock". When shooting at a flyer you put a marker on it for each miss. The markers stay on the flyer until it leaves the table or is destroyed. At the beginning of every friendly shooting phase you roll for those markers. On a 5 or a 6 that missle hits.
*Artwook is nice, and book is Space Marines more in a general form. More updated fluff, not just the rehashed fluff.
*Some of the classic Black and White was colored, but a lot of new art too.
*Book is in sections for each founding chapter (plus the Black Templars)) and a large number of the *Successor Chapters to help players know who should be using what rules.
*Salamanders don't really have any successor chapters because their chapter had suffered a large number of casualties so they have a larger number of Marines in their chapter.
*"Equivilant to Forge World background" in terms of fluff.
*Forgeworld fluff included in the codex.
*Warlord Traits (Only One Chart for the Codex):

1. Angel of Death - Warlord and his unit have the Fear special rule.
2. Imperium Sword - One use only. Declare that your Warlord is using this at the start of one of your assualt phases. The Warlord and his unit have the Furious Charge special rule until the end of the turn.
3. Storm of Fire - One use only. Declare that your Warlord is using this at the start of one of your shooting phases. For the duration of that phase a single friendly unit from Codex: Space Marines within 12" of the Warlord may re-roll any failed to-hit rolls.
4. Rites of War - When taking morale tests friendly units from Codex: Space Marines within 12" of the Warlord use his characteristic instead of their own.
5. Iron Resolve - When determining your assault results add +1 to your total if the Warlord is locked in that combat.
6. Champion of Humanity - If your Warlord causes the enemy Warlord to be removed from play in a challenge he scores D3 extra victory points in addition in the usual amount of points given for slaying the enemy Warlord in this scenario. Note that killing the enemy Warlord in a sweeping advance does not reward these extra victory points.
Chapter Tactics

*Successor Chapters - You use whatever chapter tactics of your parent chapter. The ONLY Exception is the Black Templar.
*Homebrew - You can pick any tactic you want and use the Special Characters of that chapter. Those characters have to use the same Chapter Tactics as the same Chapter their from.
*Allies - "A Space Marine Detachment that has one set of Chapter Tactics MAY ally with another Space Marine Detachment with a different set of Chapter Tactics, Ultramarines and Raven Guard for example. For purposes of the Allies rules these allies are treated as being from two different codexes and are treated as Battle Brothers. Note that you may field models from two different chapters that have the same Chapter Tactics, such as Ultramariens and Praetors of Orpheus in the same detachment. These chapters are so closely affiliated that they count as a single army on the battlefield."
COUNT AS: If you want to use Vulkan in a Ultramarines army you have to play use the Salamander Chapter Tactics. So you CAN do "count-as" but you lock yourself into their Chapter Tactics. In short, Special Characters are locked to their specific Chapter Tactics

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine: This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game. To do so at the start of your turn you state which combat doctrine you wish to use, if any, until the start of your next turn. You can only use one combat doctrine per turn.
*Tactical: Units in this detachment re-roll ones while shooting, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase.
*Assault: Units in this detachment can re-roll their charge range. Assault squads, bikes, or attack bikes instead have the fleet rule.
*Devastator: Units in this detachment may re-rolls to-hit on snap shots, including overwatch shots, in addition models in this detachment's Devastator squads have the relentless unless they disembarked from a transport in their movement phase.

White Scars - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
*Born in the Saddle: Models in this detachment with the Bike Unit Type automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, and recieve a +1 to their Jink Cover Saves. In addition add 1 to their Strength when resolving their Hammer of Wrath hits.
*Fight on the Move: Models in this Detachment have the Hit and Run Special Rule. Note that this does not include models in Terminator Armor, Devastator Centurions or Assault Centurions.

Imperial Fists - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
*Bolter Drill: Models in this detachment may re-roll all to-hit rolls of 1 made with a bolt pistol, boltgun, stormbolter, heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns. This rule does not apply to Helfire, Kraken, Vengence or Dragonfire rounds.
*Siegemasters: Models in this detachment in Devastator squads and Centurion Devastator squads have the Tank Hunter special rule and add +1 when rolling on the building damage table.

Black Templars - BOTH RULES ALL TIME
*Accept Any Challenges, No Matter the Odds: When engaged in a challenge, Black Templar Characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls, and have the Rending Special Rule.
*Crusaders: Black Templars have the Crusader and Adamantium Will Special Rules. In addition Black Templars have access to a special unit called a Crusader Squad.

Iron Hands - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
*The Flesh is Weak: Models in this detachment have the Feel no Pain on a 6+ Special Rule. Note that if they benefit from more than one instance of Feel no Pain they use the best version available.
*Machine Empathy: All vehicles and characters in this detachment have the It Will Not Die special rule even though vehicles do not have Chapter Tactic special rules. Furthermore, Techmarines and Masters of the Forge in this detachment add +1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls.

Salamanders - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
*Flamecraft: Models in this detachment can re-roll their saving throws against wounds caused by flamer weapons as defined by the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Furthermore, flame weapons used by models in this detachment re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armor penetration rolls that don't cause a glancing or a penetrating hit.
*Master Artisan: During the army selection each character in this detachment may upgrade on of his weapons, even one they have purchased as an upgrade, to have the Mastercrafted Special Rule at no additional cost.

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
*Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
*Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.
Special Characters:

Marneus Calgar:
+25 Points
Artificer Armor standard (2+)
God of War: May use a single Combat Doctrine twice per game
Titanic Might: Re-rolls all armor penetrating hits in close combat. He may reroll glancing hits to attempt to get a penetrating hit. Must accept the second roll even if it is worse than the first.
Weapons and Ammo still the same. Terminator Armor still has Frag and Krak Grenades. Retain his Teleport Homer.
Terminator Armor is 10 points and doesn't prevent sweeping advances.Warlord Trait: Rolls 3 times on the Warlord Table, rerolling doubles, and chooses a single Warlord Trait.

Captain Cato Sicarius:
-15 points
Surprise Attack: +1 to Reserve Rolls
Weapons still the same
Battle-forged Heros: Pick a Tactical Squad and they gain Counter-Attack, Infiltrate or Scout.
May still use the Coup-de-Grace with his sword.
Lost Rites of Battle
Warlord Trait: Imperium Sword

Tigirius:
-65 points
+1 Wound
Master Psyker: May re-roll any or all of his rolls to choose which powers he knows. He has access to all the powers.
ML3
Hood of Hellfire: Psychic Hood that allows you to re-roll failed psychic tests
Rod of Tigiruis: Same as before with the addition of Soulblaze
Gift of Prescience: If your army contains Tigirius you may choose to re-roll reserves and apply the result to units of the same attachement.
Warlord Trait: Storm of Fire

Cassius:
Zealot
All equipment the same
Warlord Trait: Angel of Death

Telion:
Chapter Tactics: Ultramarines
Same points cost
Same rules

Sergeant Chronus:
-20 points
+1LD
His vehicle gains It Will not Die

Khan:
-35 points (bike is still 20 point upgrade)
Bike does D3 Hammer of Wrath hits
Furious Charge
If Khan is your warlord friendly models with the Chapter Tactics White Scars special rule that are bikes or have dedicated transports have the Scout special rule.
Khan makes all bike squads who are 5 bikes or more count as troop choices.
Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity

Vulkan:
The Forgefather: If Vulkan is your warlord, all meltas, multi-meltas and combi-meltas in this detachment become twin-linked.
Lost Digital Weapons
No longer Master Crafts Thunderhammers
Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve

Shrike:
-10 points
Stealth
Before deploying Shrike can only join a Jump Infantry unit
Lost Fleet
Weapons stayed the same
Warlord Trait: Angel of Death

Lysander:
+30 Points
No more Bolter Defenses
Icon of Obstinancey: All models with the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics re-roll failed morale and pinning checks
Same wargear
Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
+1 Attack
Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuses that the
Chapter Banner gives.
Still has Hold the Line: Crimson Fist Sternguard Veterans are scoring
Same Wargear and points
Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve

Helbrecht:
+5 points
+1 WS
Rites of Battle - Gone
Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assault Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
Sword of the High Marshalls is the same (+D3 attack on the charge)

Grimaldus:
-10 Points
-1 BS
+1 Wound
-1 Attack
It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End")
Zealot
Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

Emperor's Champion:
Uses HQ Slot
+50 Points
2+/4++
Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
Combat Stances: Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy; Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

A Quick Summary of what Black Templars Gained and Lost (this list may not be complete):
Losses:
- No More Vows
- No More Marshalls or Castellans
- No More Terminator Command Squads
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy
- Sword Brethren are no longer units
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect)
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad
- No More Fearless in Close Combat
- No More Righteous Zeal
- Some Flavor
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade

Gains:
+ Chapter Master and Captains
+ Honor Guard
+ Regular Chaplains
+ Master of the Forge
+ Tactical Squads
+ Scout Squads
+ Land Speeder Storm
+ Vanguard
+ Sternguard
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator)
+ Scout Bikes
+ Devastators
+ Whirlwinds
+ Hunter
+ Stalker
+ Land Raider Redeemer
+ Thunderfire Cannon
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades)
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same

I've heard something now about the Hunter rhino thing getting something called "Savant-lock" for when it shoots a missile at a flier. If the missile hits, you put a marker on the flier that stays on it until the flier is destroyed or leaves the field. Every time your shooting phase comes back around, roll a d6 for each marker, and on a 5+ the missile contacts. Maybe not the most effective, but I love the fluff behind a missile with target lock doggedly chasing after it's target, and it does, to a certain extent, discourage fliers from just sticking around on the board after they've been tagged.

Curses, as I was typing up mine, you slapped down that big wall-o-text.