**PLEASE READ**

Well said Scott. I respect your arguments.

Just a few comments from a fly on the wall:

1) People really should just take the big ol' chill pill when it comes to some of the posts on this forum. If what has occurred here is being generally interpreted as a 'flame war', well...then you have seen nothing. While I will acknowledge that we have some highly opinionated members of the forum, one also has to take into account the method we are communicating in. Generally, in Person-to-Person conversation, there are numerous other cues besides what the person is saying to provide you with the meat and bones about what they are saying. You can say terrible things about killing puppies in person, but if you say it with a smile, or the right voice inflection, then the person/people you are talking to realize you are not an inhuman monster. There is no smiling on the internet. There is no changes of inflection, no variations in tone or posture, no additional ques beyond the words on the page.

Not to call anyone out, but a few of the people that pull your hair out about some of the posts certain members make should really try talking to these people in person. I have done it with a few of them, and they truly do come off as far less abrasive. Some of the funniest games I have played are against people that come across as total douche-bags on this forum (I refer to those who were part of the Thunderhammer of Wank conversation from a few weeks back). If you read something in 'No additional signal land' (i.e., the Interwebz) that offends you, instead of continuing a possibly misunderstood conversation in the same medium, ask the person...well, in PERSON.

2) Let us all remind ourselves that we are playing Warhammer 40,000 here. We are playing a game where we take painted (hopefully) plastic army men and kill opponents armies with them. We are not a rec hockey league, or a baseball league, or even an interpretive dance league. I fear that our particular hobby doesn't quite generate enough interest that we could afford to split the group down. Now, in the interest of maintaining a healthy membership body, should we not take steps to try and resolve any particular differences? And should those steps not necessarily be the ones that involve clear-cutting the league and forcing away those who like to play the anomalous definition of 'power-game'?

So, let us say that we do decide to split the league down into a component part comprised primarily of each 'faction' that seems to exist in our league. People are generally forced to decide which league to participate in. Now where does somebody like myself go? I generally prefer to play a more casual game with my Aspect Warriors. I enjoy painting, and am trying to develop my conversion talents. One would say that the Hunters league is right for me. However, aside from likely Pascal and a few others, I would no NOBODY IN IT. Most of the people I see asking for a split league I have never met in person. I never see you at the Den, I have never played a game against you (to my knowledge), you are really just a face on the internet. I realize that most of you are avoiding league night because you don't like the Power-Gamer community that may have arrived with the most recent batch of recruits. However, by avoiding league night you are also missing out on opportunities to play games against some really awesome people. Like me, Reagan.

To those who have been around far longer than I, I must tip my hat to you. I respect that you have had to see your hobby come and go in the cycles of popularity. I understand that it must be difficult to watch the things you build fall apart around you. At the same time, I also have to say that it may be that your previous experience is coloring your interpretation of the current situation. I generally try to make every Wednesday that the Den has a game, and I have yet to see even fake blood splashing against the walls as some power-gamer or another tries to tear each other apart. I would hate for people to make a somewhat impulsive decision based upon deeply entrenched pain over past experiences.

Has anyone considered maybe having something like a beer night so the new crew could meet the old in a forum that isn't related to wargaming? Maybe that would diffuse some of the tension that is going on here.

Oh, and if anyone has taken offence to what I ahve said, tell em in person. That way I can clock you. ........ok, ok, just kidding. But seriously...

I suggest the separate leagues.

Reagan, The reason you haven't seen the older players out on Wednesdays (besides no table room) is that the newer style of gaming puts them off. They have lives, families, and many commitments, more than most of us younger crowd. So to come down and game can be a nice escape from the fast lane, and if they come down to the den and find they aren't having fun, they won't come back.

I don't think we are breaking up the league, I think we are giving it some breathing room! has anyone noticed that with all these new players, all the old players have disappeared?

Adam, if you are so sure that you and your buddies are doing nothing different, tell me, what happened to the 6-9 other regulars that have been participating for years? its with the last league only I have seen such a dynamic shift in play style.

This site, the gaming tables, the terrain, all this stuff was built and created by people like Scott, Cam and Robyn, so they do have the right to want what they built back.

Cam is being super generous in volunteering to create your own ardboyz league, and you guys have the creativity and energy to run it. So step up to the plate, and get control. If its your league, its your rules right? And if you want more casual gaming, and a focus on the hobby, come on back to hunters!

Radom, I really don't want to get into a flame war, but I do have to point out one thing. The reason I believe your swearing laced rant reflected badly on you and everyone involved in the hobby is just the disrespect it entails. You don't go to a doctor and have him ask you "How's your =I=censor=I= knee." and while I will say tons of things about baby eating and sexual assault termies and whatever else, when it comes down to a serious discussion, I stop because I personally don't believe that it is the time or the place.

Paz, I get your point, though at the same time I have to ask, how many of us have most of you played? I know I played you once in the recon tourney (In which I did behave rather poorly, and in retrospect I appologize for that again, it was a bad night all around for me.) I don't think either jim or tyson have had at you, Nor do I think you've played against Randy, Zack, Alex etc.

My question is how can you comment that other people are playing to win and have a completely different playstyle when you haven't even played us? My second league night I saw your gorgeously painted Iron Wolves (I think), and was amused that it was about 1 dreadnought different from the list I've been playing most of the league!

(If I'm wrong I entirely withdraw the above section. Also, all of this is more of an example when compared to a lot of the older players, its not in any way directed towards you Paz! You're a pretty decent guy, Though for some reason I always find myself reading your posts in a snooty french voice.)

I'm basically going from here to some of the other threads to work out how either this alternate league/Tuff/fluff thing actually works. Regardless of how it turns out, if its on another night I HIGHLY suggest for anyone who has reservations about a lot of us to swing by and play a few games. We will speak through minatures as warriors speak with their fists. *Sagelike nod.*

Caros wrote:Radom, I really don't want to get into a flame war, but I do have to point out one thing. The reason I believe your swearing laced rant reflected badly on you and everyone involved in the hobby is just the disrespect it entails. You don't go to a doctor and have him ask you "How's your =I=censor=I= knee." and while I will say tons of things about baby eating and sexual assault termies and whatever else, when it comes down to a serious discussion, I stop because I personally don't believe that it is the time or the place.

Oh. I see. Because you've decided this is "serious" stuff I should not speak through censored words. In the same way I wouldn't want my Dr. or Lawyer to talk like that. Both of them do swear all the time, but that's neither here or there.

I'll think about your words for a minute.... OK, I am done thinking.

=I=censor=I= off.

You're not a Doctor. I'll speak as I see fit. Read it or don't. If these bleeps offend you, I could sincerely give a =I=censor=I=. You've decided that one brand of behaviour on the forums is appropriate, and another not appropriate. My language is taking away from your enjoyment of these boards and bringing the hobby you're a part of into disrepute. My behaviour is making a pastime you're passionate about seem less fulfillng perhaps? Kinda like some of the players of the league are doing with their behaviour on the boards and in person at the den I would gather.

If it seems disrespectful it could actually be because of a lack of respect. Or it could be you holding me accountable to your own set of ideals and guidelines which you admittedly turn on and off at your discretion based on the circumstances.

I give you props for starting your own investigation into a newer style of league. Sincerely good luck with that. It might have been just the thing the Ravening Hordes needed back in the day.