Line of Sight Rules

Okay, so not owning a 5th edition rule book and just based on what I've heard about these straight line of sight rules, what's to stop someone from modeling say a Rhino or Predator with a bunch of bitz, calling it Extra Armor, that would block direct line of sight to say a Daemon Prince or Dreadnaught hiding behind it?

Justin

since any conversions have to be approved by your opponent before they can be used, if it was really out of order then it could be refused.

... ok, conversely then what's to stop someone from saying, "Oh that decked out Land Raider is too big, I don't permit you to use it."? Or what if you don't agree with an opponent's view that the model is too outlandishly converted? Especially considering the Orks. I mean, this is all academic from my view as I don't model vehicles anyways and obviously the answer is common sense, but what defence to people have against the cheese monkeys?

Justin

It all depends. If your rhino has an attachement big enough to hide a daemon prince, its cheap, but not technically illegal, it all depends on your opponent. we all know how big vehicles are supposed to be, if you try to circumnavigate the rules you will end up with nobody to play, its as simple as that. as for orks, well, all their vehicles have models now, so rough size compatibility is needed.

The rule we used in third edition is that you based it on the size of the actual (unmodified) GW model. Also making it wider makes it easier to shoot at/harder for it to claim cover...

i wouldn't worry about ork vehicles as much as crouching waithlords, there are many ways to abuse alot of rules , and if they change the rules , there will be diferent ways to abuse them.

alot of people talk about making crouching waith lords , and wall like ork vehicles , but how many of them do you actualy see?

and there is actualy a way to solve alot of theese problems, i will give you a step by step..

1) take off your sock
2) stick a GW ork deffdread in it
3) swing it around in a circle motion
4 ) try to knock some sense in the ofending individual.


or... you could just not play that persone anymore ... chances are others will be doing the same.

I'd say read page 16 coloum 2 paragraph 2. It lays it pretty clear. You referance from the body. Discarding wings, banners and other frills. I've found true LOS to be a double edged sword personally. Sometimes u want a wraithlord to be tiny and sometimes your wraithlord can't be big enough. You could put a 2 foot banner ontop of a rhino and it doesn't count other than being really ugly. I think the biggest problem is your humanoid sized IC that are preched 2 inches up on beautiful terrain. I've got a few models like that and i've just measured them out and said for this model he can only see from the neck up or so forth. One of my commanders is only visible from the belt down he's on such high terrain.

Good to know that thanks for the heads up. I'll have to re-read that section. That's the problems out in the sticks once you get on a tangent no matter how much u read it ur brain tells u something else.

System Commander wrote:There was alot of uproar when the line of sight rules first came out that people would be doing that, crouching models, bulking up vehicles, etc.

When it comes down to it, there aren't that many people willing to get labelled as "that" person. If you showed up with crouching wraithlords or vehicles that are double the size because of spiky additions, I would ride you so hard for abusing the rules you would get tired of it and take apart.

I cant think of anyone I know or in the league that would do that. Now at a tournament, you could be asked to replace the model with a "suitable" model.

Its easier to abuse the vehicle rules than infantry though. Now, all line of site is measured from the head.. so if you can get hit, you ain't firing either. Vehicles come pretty standard now, and there is a model out now for every vehicle in the codexes thanks to the new battlewagon. If someone starts coming out stuff double the size for rules abuse, it wouldnt take long before they got a talking to.

I think a house rule is good here aswell. Any characters modeled like this could be counted as the size of the basic trooper (or the squad they are with)

Ok, another LoS question, where is LoS originated from on the firing end? Especially regarding vehicles, but for infantry as well, is it the weapon or is it the "head"?

Justin

Justin Buhler wrote:Ok, another LoS question, where is LoS originated from on the firing end? Especially regarding vehicles, but for infantry as well, is it the weapon or is it the "head"?

Justin

I usually apply the rule of mirrors: If they can see you then you can see them. So basically just use the "shoulders down" rule and go by the width of their base. As for vehicles you are supposed to go by the gun itself.

k, the question arose regarding the Exorcist's missile organ, where is the weapon itself in the case of that vehicle? Is it the top of the organ? If so then does that mean I can see and shoot at it as well over top of that line of Rhinos? And does the line of Rhinos grant cover saves or is seeing the organ considered as 50% of the model?

Justin

i would think the organ to an accessory and not part of the hull. but im sure i will be outvoted on this one.

Go by where the gun meets the hull. In vertical cases though go by the meaty part of the 'organ'.

For example the 'organ' on the basilisk sticks out 3 inches past the hull length wise. I always measure where this meets the hull and consider the 3 inches of overhang as extra (just like a banner). Verticle wise the mass of the basilisk's 'organ' doubles the height of the model. I would go by the height of the 'organ', but ignore the 1 centimetre or so that the gun shield sticks up above the 'organ' (especially since many people don't add in the gun shield).

Same goes for the vanquisher. The 'organ' of the vanquisher sticks out 4 inches or so, so I measure from the turret in this case.

Ah darn it, I must have forgot about that. Nuts, sorry. So what you're saying is that essentialy the fire point of the Exorsist is from the top of the rhino hull and ignores the pipes entirely?

Also Stash, this coversation has now become dirtier than it really should be. I am slightly impressed yet slightly disturbed. :p

Mr Anderson wrote:Ah darn it, I must have forgot about that. Nuts, sorry. So what you're saying is that essentialy the fire point of the Exorsist is from the top of the rhino hull and ignores the pipes entirely?

Also Stash, this coversation has now become dirtier than it really should be. I am slightly impressed yet slightly disturbed. :p

No you take the pipes into acount. Length wise you cut off any excess barrel. Basically you add the main body of a gun to the 'hull' i.e. sponsons, earth shacker cannon on the basilisk, turrents etc, but excess parts of the gun as modeled you ignore such as barrel length.

The basilisk measures its own sight from where the barrel meets its hull, however you measure to the basilisk from anywhere from the bottom treads to the top of the gun (but not the top of the gun shield, or the platform hainging out the back)


The predator measures the line of sight of its guns from the sponsons themselves and los to the predator is measured from the side of one sponson to the other (but not from the tip of one lasgun to the other).



**Bow down to the MS paint!

System Commander wrote:Stash is trying to confuse you with fancy graphics and wicked computer skills.

What it all comes down to in the end is this very smple rule... If you can shoot something, it can shoot you. Or in the case of the Exorcist, if you can draw line of sight to something, something should be able to draw line of site to you. Simple as that!

Yeah what I said

yeah actually that is a good question justin that I would like someone to answer as well. Since I really don't like the idea that those vehicles can see me but I can't see them, although I had forgotten my laser so no big deal. Next time chris next time... lol

just to be clear I don't have anything against chris, the game we played was good, but I've never had so many LoS issues come up in a game before so now it's going to be laser pointer at every game.