Whiskey & 40K | Tournament Discussion

The Nova dudes (I think this is them?) have an interesting solution instead of Comp or Ban. Balance out 40k based on the missions. (which is what they've always done).

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.ca/2013/12/better-mission-design-more-proactive.html

The TL;DR is, "Does your army play to its designed strengths better than your opponent's army plays to its designed strengths?"

definitely like that concept; that's a good way to let people play what they want and still give both a fair chance to actually win

I love the optimism, but its still flawed.

Not being to kill your enemy at all, while they are able to dominate the board is still unbalanced and not fun.

Regardless of the mission objectives. Some things are too strong, and most of them revolve around wargear or psychic powers, both things that have nothing to do with the models you've purchased and more to do with what meta you've chosen to abuse.

I like it as an alternate to the basics.. it is fun for each player to be working their own goals.. and not the.same.

But.. i agree with Mike. I cant see it making an impact at all against a screamer heavy list.. I mean.. most lists are going.to bave.som cheap troop to sit in the backfield and grab a few objectives.

Just thinking about a few lists.. i dont see a big change. Now.. coupled with some unique missions.. maybe? It still comes down to that as an opponent.. there is little to nothing you can do against the buffs your opponent can use. The old psychic hood.. now were talking!

I agree it is a good idea.....but still flawed.

I am not sure how much fun it would be to play the dark angels list in the example. I do agree you could "win the game", but you are basically just hoping that he slaughters your guys slower then you can accrue points.

I HATE walking into games and looking at the opponents army and knowing that you have no reasonable hope of killing what he brought. It does make me want to pack up my stuff and go home. There is a certain thrill to be able to "kill his little plastic dudes".

I think its just frustrating with all the re-rolls that currently exist.

Used to be, the toughest, most durable dudes on the block were 2+/3++ terminators. if you were GK's, they had 2 wounds. they were super tough, but you could torrent them down. AND they cost a small fortune in points. and they didn't get to re-roll the saves, it was what it was.

Now... it takes ~96 shots to cause 1 wound. (assuming 4BS, bolter, enemy with 4Tgh and 2+++)


I guess my biggest beef with 40k right now is that a roll is never final. every damn thing can be re-rolled. most of the Best stuff in the game currently are things that can go bad if you fail a psychic test or roll badly... too bad that all of those armies and and models have access to special rules or wargear that lets them re-roll if they happen to get that bad result/

Errata's and FAQ's from GW could improve it.
Grimoire only works on a Daemon save (3++, re-roll 1's isn't as bad)
and Errata, any armour save re-roll can only succeed on a 5+ (or something of that nature). This would make screamerstar and jetseer still worth the 700points you spend on it, but not have it be over powered and nigh unkillable.

Each itineration of our game has that thing we feel is broken. At the start of sixth, for me, it was double helldrake and castling oblits behind aegis lines (ring a bell mike? :p) 
But not impossible to beat. Last night I crushed dallas' 20 man guardian blob with vect, baron and Farseer, who had rolled fortune!
I did it by hitting that squad before he got off the power, killing half, and then after, by weight of fire (enough wounds and anyone will fail a 2++ rerollable).
I think some people need to bring down the tension here guys, especially, and I mean this not in a hateful or angry way, the guys who talk the most about how the meta is ruined, are gamers who played some pretty questionable armies in the past...

And are people so surprised so much relies on invuls today? When so many units ignore cover (tau marker lights, eldar serpent shields).

hehe +1 Paz.

There's a lot of screamer hate, but it's really 9x screamers with 3-4 heralds on disks.

5xscreamers doesn't do it. 1-2 heralds don't do it either.

Screamers on their own are balanced.

I think what people really hate is their game depends on the other person failing a single roll. When a eldar power or grimore make a unit nearly unkillable and the only thing you can do is cross your fingers is frustraighting. It's just like everything ignoring cover. Who has fun when someone ignores every rule in the game?
There was a time everyone hated grey knights because they did everything better than everyone. No one wanted to play against them because they were just better. Now what they had seems so mild compared to new stuff.
I could be a bit spiteful because I need more games to get used to the new armies but I don't know how much it will change.

Every list I've ever taken has been deemed Questionable by you paz. I remember you and gingah going all googly-eyed when i fielded 3 Defilers in 5th edition, defilers!... heh.

I'm not sure exactly what your argument is. if "us" Powergamers are the ones commenting, i'de take that as a sign that something might actually be up.

Some dude on Faiet the other day was trying to tie anyone that didn't like D weapons in their games as a WAAC powergamer... when if that was the case, we'd all just be headed to the website to pick up a titan.

i guess discussion for the sake of discussion can be labeled as tension, i just see it as people being bored and needing something to talk about. just like all the "buzz" that is the rumour mill. its almost a boring cycle now. you can time your watch on when the next months rumors are released, when the white dwarf will be leaked by someone in albania or italy and when someone on /tg will have a scan up.

@Mike - lots of folks aren't a big fan of spam, whether it's defilers, oblits, heldrakes, etc.

To tell you the truth I'm finding myself agreeing with that sentiment these days as I think a lot of the problems that can be created in this edition are easily rectified by people taking a more balanced approach to their lists. I could bring Taudar (unpainted for extra doucebaggery!), spam only the top units, and use every lame combo in the book, but seriously who wants to play with or against that...

That's the disconnect here, some people don't mind that type of environment, others do, YMMV.

Rhaevyn wrote:Every list I've ever taken has been deemed Questionable by you paz. I remember you and gingah going all googly-eyed when i fielded 3 Defilers in 5th edition, defilers!... heh.

Well I think thats a bit of an exaggeration Mike, I've never said every list you've done is powergamery. I even applauded you on your nice conversions and interesting list at the last tourney.
You have played some silly stuff though, at one time or another. I just feel its a case of the pot calling the kettle black right now. And I've played Dallas a lot in the last while, as well as ian, running a double riptide, and, while I sigh and shake my head at some lists being run, I don't feel they are unbeatable. The convo flow on the net, and particularly here on hunters lately seems to be "40k is broken, lists are broken, fw is broken, uugh!" and im just not seeing that. Sure, from a mathhammer perspective, its seems daunting, but rarely have I had a game where things went by statistical sets of outcomes.

I wasn't trying to offend you, but you have to admit that some of your lists have fit right in with the meta at the time (3 defilers and lash princes, at the time, I felt, were silly powerful. You lash guys into a circle, you cannon them with defilers: same feeling of "my dice dont matter now" you get with 2++ reroll and markerlight spam., or dat feel of multiple helldrakes flying on and erasing whole units of troops with little to no way to stop them) so now, that the meta has rolled over again into something different, I find it hypocritical to talk about how broken they are. Again, my opinion, and does not mean I think you are a shitty player/person or any of that.   
But to see dallas and such get shit on a lot, for trying the newest cheese (which raely works for him mind you), well it irks me   

Judchic- its scary to look at the new meta when you havent played as much man, but I can reasonably say you have little to worry about. its still a fun game, and totally winnable, dont let stats and mathhammer give you the impression that its all terrible and no way to win.

It's funny, becasue I think the only reason Dallas even remotely got tied into this is because he posted up that "maybe" list and is now taking the heat. Unless he has being playing it and we don't about it.. Hmmmmm.

I wonder if this is why people become so entrenched in 40K. It does evoke some strong emotions, good and bad. It's almost like a damn baptism by fire or bizarre tour of duty. When a new book comes out, or new edition and your able to weather your way through the new combo or new list, I think you become even more emotionally tied to it.

"I remember back in the day when rhinos could move 18" and you could assault out of them, ha!"

It gets a lot of discussion going.. alot of passion. If you had a perfectly balanced game with easy mechanics.. there would be no debate. Thats probably a horrible argumenet.. I think Id personally rather have a perfectly balanced game with everyone on the same playing field.. but, would it bring the same dedication? Maybe it has to be flawed to keep people empotionally tied.. I dont know.

*shrugs* GW makes me so mad, but I still love the darn game.. go figure.

My single biggest complaint about the game is only that is really drops the ball on some units, while making others a bit to good. I would love to use a Skull Cannon.. but.. they are really pretty crappy. I love the idea of Khorne Mutilators, Possessed, and even the damn trusty defiler.. but, ugh. And.. I could even see if they nerfed an old unit to sell new models.. but then why make the the new units so crappy. I dont care what bizarre argument anyone brings up, Warp Talons are still way to expensive to be useful.

If GW would release a book and give it an update after a few months to bring into line with crappy sales, or combos/uses they didnt see.. or even if the damn book was written two years earlier and was now goofily costed (this was the rumour with the chaos book) I would be happy. But.. since they dont make mistakes they can never fix anything.

You know what would help blow off some steam? A.. bring the most ridiculous list, anything you want, no comp or force org army tournament. I dont know if I would play but I think it would be interesting to see what people could bring.

It's true that tensions are high these days and we're starting to see a real schism between the people that are looking to maximize output through mathhammer and "broken" lists, which I get, and the people that just want to make fluff lists and fight it out to see what happens. Do these broken lists exist? Yes, there are some mechanics that are beyond messed up, but when it gets abused, people hear about it, boy do they hear about it. I think on the whole most of us are pretty good for avoiding cheese but it is a slippery slope, as Voth mentioned, and that can lead to the pot and the kettle duking it out.

What I think this will come down to is how we handle it as a community, by running different kinds of tournaments with different rules so everyone will get a chance to "power game" that wants to and everyone will get a chance to play balanced that wants to (highlander... hello). Maybe Games Workshop is trying to test us, I don't know, but we can do a lot ourselves to make everyone happier, namely banning Dallas and his screamer star, who's with me? (Kidding, Dallas )

While I like the general concept of the Helturkey and all, giant flying daemon dragon chaos purple monkey dishwasher, the whole "turret mounted from the base" was kinda silly for the amount of power jump it gave it. Some of these things, with how the meta stands, have me trying to poke around to find other things that are effective but seem less cheese, since drakes seem done to death now, largely from the interwebs. Really weird when games can fall into extremes of "no saves never" to "yo dawg, I heard you like 2++'s", wanting some middle ground is perfectly reasonable.

All in all, though, just giving your opponent a heads up as to what you're bringing should be enough most times to have things even out. If one side brings a titan, then it shouldn't be unreasonable to bring something big (or good at hunting big things) on your side. If someone is going to bring a death star, you can either bring your own or build for threat overload/MSU to minimize how much the DS can do in any one turn. Et cetera, et cetera.

I don't take offense, i just think that i have an inflated reputation

Who in Saskatoon is actually fielding more than one heldrake? i know its not this guy. I've been playing the same "highlander" list since the spring. I have converted and painted two, but after like 2 games it quickly became clear it wasn't fun for either of us, kinda like dual lash, which i played in a single tournament and lost, and yet somehow got a giant rep for

I post a lot of lists, but i don't actually play them. If i was smart, I'd have sold the CSM a long time ago and picked up the army of the month.

Rhaevyn wrote:I don't take offense, i just think that i have an inflated reputation

Who in Saskatoon is actually fielding more than one heldrake? i know its not this guy. I've been playing the same "highlander" list  since the spring. I have converted and painted two, but after like 2 games it quickly became clear it wasn't fun for either of us, kinda like dual lash, which i played in a single tournament and lost, and yet somehow got a giant rep for

I post a lot of lists, but i don't actually play them. If i was smart, I'd have sold the CSM a long time ago and picked up the army of the month.

Thats totally fair man, and I am as guilty as anyone for jumping the gun, remembering the bad times and not the good.

I do like that, now that certain miscreants are gone from these hallowed halls, we can have fairly calm and unflamy discussions about a game that so fires us up,a s robyn put it.  

I think the important thing to remember is that 99.9% of the time, there isn't a problem. It gets much less so with a little convo.

Drew: I'm bringing my Tzeentxhy horde, guard allies. One vendetta, no turkey.

Me: deathwing with ironwing backup. The mortis dreads okay with you?

Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but if I said, what's my dark angels tactical list? I'd like to think around 10 ppl could recite it back to me. The list may evolve and change, but the basics are there. It may be a little spammy, but you know what you are dealing with.

Also I brought this up in a private convo. It would help if some of the "pro's" could post tutorials on how to counter the hard cheese. For instance, I keep hearing you deal with Screamerstar by feeling Big bird and the gromoire herald...HOW? The herald is in the middle of the 2++ reroll and has multiple wounds. I can't shoot him, I need 3+ turns of my army shooting at him. I can't assault cuz the screamers and herald with make mince meat of my tacticals. Better players will make for better games.

Precision shots. He only has a 4++ rerolls 1s, and if the daemon player has bad placement a deepstriking unit/flanking unit may be able to get him as closest target since generally the screamers are at the front/sides of the unit. I believe most characters have precision shots as well as snipers?
As for dealing with fateweaver, he generally only has a 4++ as well. Because of his flight paths I have had people focus him, and either kill him in the air, or ground him and then assault him.

but they can just "Look out Sir" the precision shots. 2+ to give it to nearest screamer.

Jessie's right, but, remember the chances of failing 3 attempts at 2+ are close to 50%.

The dude using the book can't benefit from the book. If a Herald books his own unit, he doesn't get the bonus. Also, the book is only "good" if Kairos is around to re-roll the result.

If the dude books the screamer star, Kill Kairos. Kairos is really really squishy. He's only T5. Ground him with bolter fire.

If he books Kairos, he didn't book the screamers.

In short, kill other things.

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There's a few other tricks to sniping out the herald too.
1) Barrage weapons centered on his head. That's a lot of Look out Sir rolls, and the poor schlub is only T3 with 2 wounds.
2) -- you can't Line of Sight snipe, unless it's with a 4+ ruin and dude didn't turbo boost (as they all jink) -- (Who'd've thought a 5+ cover save was broken when you had a 4++ save, eh?)
3) As Dallas said, if dude places his model badly, you can snip him out.

Dallas played that screamerstar against me once and nearly lost. I tied it up in combat with a Wraithknight, which effectively nullified it.

===

Jetseer is a different beast. It relies on dudes making psychic tests on an 8 or less, but if dude fortune's and conceals then
1) As Tau, you can spend two markerlights to ignore cover, then open up with your S8 AP2 riptide blast of blastyness.
2) Assault it with AP2 close combat things
3) Runepriest
4) Spontaneous combustion (focused witchfire, inflicts a wound with no cover or armour)
5) Snipe out the dude with protect (is he even a character? I can't remember if they're characters when in the big unit..., otherwise he's 4+ LoS with a 4++/re-roll do to fortune)

@ Beau

Oddly enough I had pointed this out to both Mark and Dallas, but one thing everyone seems to have forgotten to counter the jet/screamerstar is the humble rune priest. He also tends to counter Tau and Necrons or anyone else who either relies on psychic powers or has a low Initiative. Honestly he solves a lot of things considered "broken". Anyone who can get him as an ally should be taking him if they are planning on playing competitively ( which is basically everyone but chaos).

When you guys play these evil lists of evil doom, can't you just ignore the deathstar unit and kill other things?

I mean (and Ive been out of the loop for a while), whats the mobility on screamer star? Just kill everything else... okay, so he charges, tie it up for as long as possible and just turn your attention on the other stuff. He can't score with screamers can he?

Screamer star, as I understand it, is highly mobile, consisting entirely of Jet Bikes. As for targeting other things, some of the death star builds I've seen of late are big enough that the "everything else" starts in reserve.