New Chaos Thoery: Chaos Spawn are... good?

Hey Guys,

At 30pts a model, I think Chaos Spawn are actually really good. If you take a unit of 4 or 5... they have 3 wounds each at S5 T5 and are likely assaulting on turn 2 (as they're Beasts), also for each spawn that charges they get (1-2: 4+ armour, 3-4: 2D6 pick highest attacks, 5-6: Poisoned 4+)

On top of this, they're fearless, have fear, and Rage (+2 attacks on the charge). On the charge they get between 3-8 attacks each at S5 I3.

A unit of 4 is 120pts, 5 is 150pts.

Seems good, I might convert my old Daemonettes (or just re-base them), as the old Daemonettes look nothing like Daemonettes anymore!

Thoughts?

Downside I can see is Armour Save - on their profile.

If they are fearless I even see them tying up TH/SS termies for quite a while.

Well, the thunderhammers hit them on 3s, wound them on 2s and they get no save. Yeah, they should tie them up for a while.

Theyd tie them up for a few few rounds for sure.. Especially if the spawns kill a few off the charge.

I cant tell if Tim is beng sarcastic or not.

Even if they got 5 attacks each on the charge.. 25 str 5 attacks wounding on 3's should definitely take out a couple. Those termies will then be out for a few turns for sure. Thats 15 wounds to go through with no autokils

Assuming 10 attacks (2 per termie), 10 x 2/3 x 5/6 ~ 5 wound per combat.

The 5 spawn would average 5 x 3.5 attack x 1/2(ws3)x2/3(str 5)x 1/6 (termie save)~70/72~1 unsaved wound.

So a turn and a half, you give up 150 pts to kill 120 pts of hammer-nators.

The termies would *not* instant-kill the spawn, and go last. With 5 dudes attacking, they'll get some good bonuses, you could get upwards of 25+ attacks, hitting on 4's, potentially re-rolling failed to-wound rolls, you could kill a pair before they get in. 6 attacks back from the termies, hit 4 times, wound 3 times, kill one spawn only. (Unless they're GK with Hammerhand)

After that, 4 spawn get between 1-6 attacks each (potentially rolling 2D6, pick the highest).

Against non-power weapon weilding foes, they'd be quite devastating. Could potentially wipe out a unit of Ork Boyz. They'd also fair well against any vehicle with rear armour 10/11.

Much like Scarabs, it'd be a unit that you can't ignore, giving time to the rest of the army to do terrible things to your opponent.

I agree that spawn are better in the new rules. Possibly even worth playing, but why pick out the one unit they matchup poorly against and try to use that as an example of why they're good? Why not use, oh I don't know...any other unit in the game and compare them to that? The terminators will wipe out the spawn. Sure, the spawn will kill a terminator or three with average rolls. One thing I've learned in years of playing 40K is that if you're relying on torrent to get rid of terminators you will be disappointed...a lot. Sometimes your opponent just won't roll those ones for you. Spawn are cool, I agree. But you guys suck at arguing. A mob of slugga boyz will do every bit as well as the spawn in your example. And they score.

Anyhoo, I still think the new bikers are the superior choice. But if you were doing a rush, 3 maulerfiend sorta beatdown list 3 units of spawn would be very cool.

Maulerfiends are definitely interesting.

125 points, +10 with the pair of lash thingies. The lash things are interesting, as they reduce attacks by one each to a minimum of one and the Maulerfiend can get two.

They, essentially, move like Beasts as well, 12" move, ignoring cover, and ignores the effect of cover on the charge and has fleet.

I dont think anyones arguing?

Someone mentioned terminators.. I thought they wouldnt do bad against them.. Or at keast hold them up for a nit.

I think th/ss termies are the most resilient unit in the game right now.. And its natural to use a unit like them as a benchmark for other units.

You are right, stupid me for comparing them to something in my army. I should have compared them to my neophytes obviously.

Spawn vs Orks: 5 kills per round.
Vs scout eqv: 3 per round
Orks vs (20 boys): 60 attacks, 30 hits, 5 wounds. The spawn will save 1/2 of those every third turn.
Scouts (10) vs: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1.666 wounds. That'll end well.

I misread the mutation table, they only get one roll on it.

So either a 4+ save, 2D6 pick highest attacks, or 4+ Poisoned (which against T5 or less, would be re-rolls to wound).

I know my math is lazy, but it serves its purpose.

I'm not surprised the hammer-nators beat them. I was surprised they take 3 of them with them.

Any think that can bring a lot of attacks (like boys), they're gonna have a bad time.

Chaos Spawn Targets.

Anything from Codex: Tau
Marines on Foot
Marine Bikes
Scout Marines
Any Vehicle with rear armour 11 or less
Anything from Codex: Necrons (except Wraiths and Monoliths)
Most Eldar (they wound the spawn on 6's... spawn wounds on 2's)
Ork Boyz (If the Spawn get the charge, they go first, wound on 3's and the Orks wound on 6's)

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Chances are good there'll be something the Spawn can pwn that's on the board.

Lore Weaver wrote:Chaos Spawn Targets.

Anything from Codex: Tau
Marines on Foot
Marine Bikes
Scout Marines
Any Vehicle with rear armour 11 or less
Anything from Codex: Necrons (except Wraiths and Monoliths)
Most Eldar (they wound the spawn on 6's... spawn wounds on 2's)
Ork Boyz (If the Spawn get the charge, they go first, wound on 3's and the Orks wound on 6's)

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Chances are good there'll be something the Spawn can pwn that's on the board.

There you go Mark! That's some arguing! Ork boyz are a bit of a bugaboo because they can shoot the spawn, and if there's cover for them the spawn will have a tougher time with the striking last and all. And Eldar striking scorpions are dedicated spawn slaughterers. But yes, spawn have a lot of good matchups. So much that a unit of them would almost never completely lack a target.

System Commander wrote:I dont think anyones arguing?

We're all arguing that spawn are worth taking. Just some are doing it better than others.

Lore Weaver wrote:Ork Boyz (If the Spawn get the charge, they go first, wound on 3's and the Orks wound on 6's)

This is not really correct either. If the spawn get the charge on boyz in the open they go first. The only way to guarantee the spawn go first is to have the boyz charge them. If the boyz are getting charged, remember they have 3 attacks (slugga boyz) each hitting on 3s. That means 3 boyz = 1 wound. 9 boyz = 1 dead spawn, on average. We can ignore the one overwatch wound. If the boyz do get the charge against non-nurgle spawn, they will mop them up pretty quickly. It's not a great matchup for the spawn, the boyz just have so many attacks. They would do better against shoota boyz, although they risk losing a spawn on the charge.

Just double checked Tim, and you're right, the spawn would strike last. However, even then the Orks are hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, depending on whatever random goofyness the Spawn roll, they still have a good shot at killing many orks, and will generally still be around to tie them up, eventually killing them all, (or dying) 150 pts to kill 195 points of orks? Seems good.

In local meta, people generally take 20 Boyz with a Nob still.

Edit: I'm assuming 30 shoota-boyz, your math is right on the slugga's. I don't think I'd mark them, that costs points for little benefit (Nurgle's cool, T6 >>>> T5)

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I forgot to add Tyranids into this mix. I'd charge these guys against a T6 or less monsterous creature, guants, maybe even genestealers & warriors.

Edit 2---

Basically, Spawn are guaranteed....
1) a 4+ save (good vs non-power weapon dudes, which the Spawn with their massive threat range should be able to find)
2) a bunch of attacks, 2D6 pick the highest, should generally see 4ish attacks per spawn (I'll roll snake's all the time)
3) poison attacks with S5... lotsa wounds against T5 or less targets
All of these are good, and with 3 wounds each at t5, in a max sized unit, you'll probably most bases attacking if you go second. Mark of Slaneesh might be okay to make them I4...

Lore Weaver wrote:Just double checked Tim, and you're right, the spawn would strike last. However, even then the Orks are hitting on 3's, wounding on 6's, depending on whatever random goofyness the Spawn roll, they still have a good shot at killing many orks, and will generally still be around to tie them up, eventually killing them all, (or dying) 150 pts to kill 195 points of orks? Seems good.

But they don't kill the Orks. The Orks kill the Spawn, with models to spare. Also the Orks can shoot and score. I was comparing Nurgle Spawn (180 points) to 30 slugga boyz (180 points) just because the points worked out nice and even. But whatever, the units will be in the same ballpark cost-wise. If you don't Nurgle the Spawn the Orks will be a lil bit more. If the Orks are in cover it's a suicide charge for the Spawn. If they're in the open it's a bit closer. Regardless, Spawn are much better off picking on units with smaller numbers of attacks. Tactical Marines or Sniper Scouts or whatnot.

Agreed. Trukk Boyz would be a reasonable matchup in the Ork book, or bikers...

The real money matchup is Codex Eldar, where the spawn wound on 2's and are wounded on 6's, or IG guys. I'm going to re-base my Daemonettes onto 40mm bases for Spawn models and give it a go for a game, probably mark them up to I4... Imagine playing these against Tau... Either the Tau put 15 wounds on the unit from shooting (and then, not shooting your other things), or they start losing units to them on Turn 2. (12" move, Run, 12" move, Fleet charge (avg 9"), is 34" of threat range)

Spawn were awesome in 3.5. Same points with a 3+ save. They they neutered them. Now they are better cause they are cheaper but they are no bike.

GW improved a bunch of the Fast attack slots then invalidated them all with 20 point bikes.

I still think spawn have their place. You have to choose their matchups, but they can do some things bikes cannot.

Thread Necro!

Anyway...

5 Chaos Spawn with a Lord on either a Steed of Slaanesh, Disc of Tzeench, or Juggernaut of Khorne. You get a lot of the mobility, you get a tank to get the spawn across the field unscathed, and a lot of punchy punch.