Im coming around..

I'm not sure Kirby has realized yet that the sorc is BS4, 2W 2A just yet. there is a reason hes much cheaper now. hes a second rate sorc. 50% of all chaos powers are Witchfires. would it have hurt to have the sorc be BS5 like before?

Psychic test/roll to hit/deny the witch. so...17% chance to cause yourself a wound. + 17% chance to not cast it at all, + 17% chance enemy unit resists your spell(base, not including other sorcs or pyschic hoods) etc and a whopping 34% chance you just flat out miss. Sounds like a good investment to me.

blah. sorry . last negative post, i promise! i'll try to be chipper like the GK players from now on!

That damn grey knight book really messed things up for everybody

Wouldnt it be nice if it never would of happened.. But theyve sure sold a shitload of new dudes as a result.

was looking at the sorcerer this morning too. 60pts base, +50pts to make him level 3 psyker, +25pts to make him have terminator armor. that's a 135pt tigurius. if im reading it right, you dont pay for the sorcerer to take a mark, so you dont pay extra to make him tzeentch to unlock Tsons as troops. only downsider, persay is your forced to choose 1 tzeentch power if you take that mark. looking at the choices there, that's livable.

also noticed apart from the Tsons who are still Ld 10, all the other troops got bumped down to Ld 8, champion Ld 9, and termies, possessed, and chosen are all Ld 9 across the board.

the Tsons still cost the same, but the sorcerer is 2 pts cheaper. and instead of picking psyker powers that he must pay for, cause he has mark of tzeentch and only 1 psyker mastery, he rolls for a power in the tzeentch discipline. so overall, the squad became cheaper.

plague marines are 10pts cheaper to start, and had their CCW become a knife that always wounds on a 4+. and cause its poisoned, if you face off against anyone toughness 4 or lower, that will get re-rolls to wound in CQC. in addition to taking the 2 special guns per squad, they can also have the option that 2 could instead replace their pistols with plasma pistols. pay 10pts and this squad will also cause fear tests.

berserkers are 15pts cheaper. ...thats bout all i see.

noise marines are 20 points cheaper, lost their CCWs but can buy them back for 1pt/model, or replace their bolter with it for free, or, replace all their bolters with sonic blasters for 3pts instead of 5pts. blastmasters are 10pts cheaper too. pay 30pts and they gain Feel No Pain.

a 65pt lord unlocks 1 of the last 3 choices as troops.

and another nice change i see is that now you guys get usable fast attack choices, where before this slot was completely ignored.

Possessed, despite what people say, did get attention. they've gained fleet. At the start of each assault phase they now roll on a D3 chart to see what they get, which is: re-roll wounds, melee attacks are AP3, +1 attack and Initiative. being Daemon, they get a 5++ invul, and cause Fear. they're also 10pts cheaper to start. and get to pick on the chaos boon table twice. and with the marks and icons, you can tool them up even better.

My problem with Noisemarines... you need to take 10 or more, or else they aren't so good. 1/10 gets a blastmaster? If it was 1/5 they'd be awesome. 1/10 is a bit... average.

dusktiger wrote:was looking at the sorcerer this morning too. 60pts base, +50pts to make him level 3 psyker, +25pts to make him have terminator armor. that's a 135pt tigurius. if im reading it right, you dont pay for the sorcerer to take a mark, so you dont pay extra to make him tzeentch to unlock Tsons as troops. only downsider, persay is your forced to choose 1 tzeentch power if you take that mark. looking at the choices there, that's livable.

also noticed apart from the Tsons who are still Ld 10, all the other troops got bumped down to Ld 8, champion Ld 9, and termies, possessed, and chosen are all Ld 9 across the board.

the Tsons still cost the same, but the sorcerer is 2 pts cheaper. and instead of picking psyker powers that he must pay for, cause he has mark of tzeentch and only 1 psyker mastery, he rolls for a power in the tzeentch discipline. so overall, the squad became cheaper.

plague marines are 10pts cheaper to start, and had their CCW become a knife that always wounds on a 4+. and cause its poisoned, if you face off against anyone toughness 4 or lower, that will get re-rolls to wound in CQC. in addition to taking the 2 special guns per squad, they can also have the option that 2 could instead replace their pistols with plasma pistols. pay 10pts and this squad will also cause fear tests.

berserkers are 15pts cheaper. ...thats bout all i see.

noise marines are 20 points cheaper, lost their CCWs but can buy them back for 1pt/model, or replace their bolter with it for free, or, replace all their bolters with sonic blasters for 3pts instead of 5pts. blastmasters are 10pts cheaper too. pay 30pts and they gain Feel No Pain.

a 65pt lord unlocks 1 of the last 3 choices as troops.

and another nice change i see is that now you guys get usable fast attack choices, where before this slot was completely ignored.

Possessed, despite what people say, did get attention. they've gained fleet. At the start of each assault phase they now roll on a D3 chart to see what they get, which is: re-roll wounds, melee attacks are AP3, +1 attack and Initiative. being Daemon, they get a 5++ invul, and cause Fear. they're also 10pts cheaper to start. and get to pick on the chaos boon table twice. and with the marks and icons, you can tool them up even better.

Marks are 15 pts each for Sorc. So 150,

Regarding lords, marks are 10 for Khorne, 15 for others. So 75/80 for a BP/CCW lord with no invul. A lord taken to the level of a Capt. is 90pts (for the 4+invul).

FA was made cheaper across the board, but they lowered Bikes so much, that's easily the best choice.

Berserkers are 19 points each.

Berserkers and plague marines are more or less a wash. I do like the new loadout better though.. some new iptoons available. Ive been wanting to take a fist but knowing you have to always accept make challenges ive been keaning towards a power sword or lightening claw.

The sons seem pretty costly but i really have to see them in action first with the other support options to see how theu faired. Noise marines look great with the fnp option. Good shooting and strong init if assaulted.

The bs 4 on the sorceror is a kicker. After all is said in done your probably better off taking ahriman and getting tjat awesome d3 units infiltrate ability.

Im really considering taking a Huron equivalent for just that reason.. Oh the mini is awful though.

Another thing to keep in mind.. Forgeworld are more or less doing mini dexes for the legions army. . If gw would ever hike up their panties and say everythings compatible.. Therell be some cool new flavourful units popping up in the comkng years... Especially when we get into the post heresy books.

I guess a blob of 20 noise marines with two blastmasters would be cool, the rest with the Sonic Blaster... sitting back and holding an objective with FnP while they're at it. All for the low-low cost of what... 500 points? ugh...

Noise Marines... I loved them through all the ages, even the bad times... but I'm not buying and converting 30 dudes just to take playable units.

A unit of Noise Marines with CCW and boss dude with a Power Maul or something (striking at init 5) is pretty cool, and cheap-ish...... Might be a playable army to be had there. Backed up with bikes and stuff.

I'll need to read the book. I'll grab one on Saturday if Darren's still got his sale on.

If you want 10CC Noise Marines in Rhino it's not cheap.

10 dudes: 170
Swap bolters for CCWs: free
Icon of FNP: 30
Champ gets Siren, Meltabombs, Power Weapon?: 35
You've got 10 guys, mise well add a blastmaster: 30

265 + Rhino = About 300 points. Maybe that's not too bad. 4 of those + some support. You would need a Slaanesh lord as well.

Wow Chaos players are really asking for the moon here. A Grey Knight Libby is bs4 and a 2 wounder too. Base cost with termy armor nemisis force sword (4++ in cc), psk master 2 with psyk- out grenades 150pt. And that's only with hammer hand and the force weapon powers.
Next Chaos gets a flyer that can cc other flyers. Okay against a StormRaven on average you will get 3 hits. You have a fifty percent chance of taking a hull point. Before the jink save. No your not going to instant kill a flyer with the dragon. Think about it. If the dragon had a str 10 attack you would move 36 to assault a flyer or vechile, Vector strike average 3 hits, and basically be assured to destroy anything it hits. Oh how fun...
From what I have see you get to roll on your boom chart for every character. And the odd time you get a daemon prince. Grey Knights don't get a dreadknight that pops out of a Justicars ass.
A Space Marine Fully Las'ed out Pred is 165pts. Whats a Chaos Pred with full las and daemon possessed cost... hmmm
Yes you get 20 Noise troops with 2 blastmasters and 18 sonicblasters for 500 pts. 20 Sterngurd with just combi weapons is 600pts
Berserkers base are 19pts. Base GK is 20pts. Base Vanguard is 20pts

As a Space Marine guy I really don't get what most chaos players are complaining about. Besides the book isn't even out yet and very few lists have been tested yet. Give it a chance.

Ohhhhh.. I dont want to bite...

But a berserker vs. A gk... No no. Wooon't do it... Ive played about 30 games with grey knights and they are bonkers. Im not the best 40k player around.. But ive only lost two games with gk since theyve come out.. Both of those to gavin in very close games. I dont even do anything tactical.. I just shoot lots and lots str 5 guns and psycannons. Prescience made that tactic even more bizarrely awesome in the new edition.

The boons champs get at the beginning of game cant be used to turn into a spawn or a daemon prince.

GK are beyond goofy in terms of rules/pricing. Necrons are much better.. But the options for flyers as transports threw a big monkey wrench.. And the scarabs are a pain in the butt.. Even though ive still passed far more checks then ive failed.

Ill be playing chaos full on.. But i still reserve the right to critique.

I wonder how the gk book would pan out with a 10% increase the board... Hmm. Prob not enough.

James.

GK players do not get to talk about the chaos codex. not at all. Ever. Some of us have it already, as it was leaked. so we Do know whats in it.

Lets see. 110 lv 3 sorc. +25 for Termy armour, + 15 mark of tzeench (to match the 4++) = 150 points. No ATSKNF, no PSyk out grenades. no fearless, must issue challenges.. so that if they ever meet he can get facepwned by said GK libby.

The boon chart is a joke. Its 10 points for a small chance at something good. as apposed the 5 points a GK player pays to make his guns +1 str. Trust me in saying that every chaos player on the planet would trade the boon table for Psy ammo. Every, single, one. Also. You do not get spawn or DP's at the start of the game. you can only roll Dark Apotheosis or spawndom when you actually Kill another character in a challenge, during the game.

This means 2 things. If your Chaos Lord is winning challenges, hes probably decked out and in combat range and does not WANT to be a prince(or a spawn) because hes already breaking faces.. and he will lose all his gear, which probably includes a daemon weapon. Chaos unit champions will not be winning any Challenges except by pure dumb luck... and so they will not be rolling on the Boon table during the game.

also. stop comparing the storm raven to the Hell drake. the storm raven will kill the hell drake the first time i shoots at it, every single game. every game. The problem with the drake is that it has not enough comparable firepower to Every other Current Flyerr. the drake is 170 points. 170. not 130.(vendetta 3TL lascannons) not 120? (dakkajet 18 str 6 shots the turn it arrives) Not 100 Night scythe - (Twin linked Tesla Destructor? 4 TL str 7 shots that triple up on 6's? heh). It is 5 points cheaper than a doom scythe. 175... but then the doom scythe has a str 10 ap1 3-16" death ray template... I hope i don't have to explain the efficacy of that weapon?

str 7 ap3 vector strikes on side armor do jack and shit to anything you care about. omg! i took a hull point off a rhino! Glad that i glanced off that Rifleman before it blasted me out of the sky BECAUSE I FLEW OVER IT AND SHOWED IT MY AV10 ASS HOLE. (i mean exaust hole).

no. GK players and Necron players dont get to tell chaos players that they are over-reacting. You dont have to playtest lists, because the army is the same, except that Daemon princes are bad, lash is gone, Accurate Deep Strike is Gone(icons removed). Lesser Daemons are gone, and infiltrating has been removed from the codex. Giving you less options than before, with more random and less ability to compete.

..damn it. i was being so chipper too

Coteaz is 100pts.

Okay Rhaevyn, I just finished one of your list types. Defilersx3, troops with plasma in rhino combi melta x2. But threw in khane, and beserkers against my new crowe air force list. Round 4 it was over... But I did play my vulkan list against it to last night and it was a very good battle with Khane murdering Vulkan in turn 5. And the Defilers and Beserkers cleaning up every thing else. I still think it is a balanced codex. Play test a Dragon against a Storm Talon... The Dragon will take a Talon every time. And there is only a 15 point difference.

Look through the Space Marine codex and then look through the Chaos Space Marine codex. Tell me what ya think

Chaos stands up decently against Vanilla Smurfs. They die to GK. Everytime. Yes, this time too. And the next. See a pattern yet?

How exactly did you playtest this, James? Did you play a game against yourself?

Commander James of the Ul wrote:Okay Rhaevyn, I just finished one of your list types. Defilersx3, troops with plasma in rhino combi melta x2. But threw in khane, and beserkers against my new crowe air force list. Round 4 it was over... But I did play my vulkan list against it to last night and it was a very good battle with Khane murdering Vulkan in turn 5. And the Defilers and Beserkers cleaning up every thing else. I still think it is a balanced codex. Play test a Dragon against a Storm Talon... The Dragon will take a Talon every time. And there is only a 15 point difference.

Look through the Space Marine codex and then look through the Chaos Space Marine codex. Tell me what ya think

the problem that i think most people are complaining about are the two elephants in the room. If GW changed it's policy on how they release codex's to say *wink wink* PP no one would be complaining. All the codex's would be like wise in power and you would have a good ole game of rock paper scisssors. Right now i see GK thunder hammer, Cron Scissors and a spit ball. Yes people like Reece can make the web eat crow by rocking with his footdar. Who really want's to do that though. The huge complaint is as a Chaos player is however stuck with this codex and where it is. The Cron's and GK's for 5+ years so yea. So as a company if your not going to ramp everything up to that level your alternative is SoB and Nids, and how are they doing on sales. I hear the sisters flying off the shelves at darrens.

I'm neutral in this since i'm a Loyalist Space Marine junkie and i'll play them no matter how bad the codex is. I still want an op codex though lol. have a great long weekend everyone and happy thanksgiving.

Commander Ul's comparisons are funny! Storm Talon is universally known as awful and it's base is 130, oh and did I mention its overcosted.

Try comparing to a vendetta or dakka. Don't choose to compare to the worst.

Roland wrote:

Marks are 15 pts each for Sorc. So 150,

Regarding lords, marks are 10 for Khorne, 15 for others. So 75/80 for a BP/CCW lord with no invul. A lord taken to the level of a Capt. is 90pts (for the 4+invul).

what page is the costs on? i cant find them anywhere in the unit entries for the lords or sorcerer.

nvm, found it!

Now for something positive...

Slannesh Sorc on a Steed joins a unit of bikes and gives it Outflanking and Acute senses... comes on the board from the side, Drops sensory overload on some poor unit, Blinding and Cuncussing it, WS1/BS1/I1 Maybe even pinning it. setting it up for the charge next turn and also protecting itself from shooty/charges.


maybe.

Commander James of the Ul wrote:Look through the Space Marine codex and then look through the Chaos Space Marine codex. Tell me what ya think

first. The defiler list was gimicky in fifth. And just bad in sixth. and now that they are 200 points...

second.

When i flip through the marine codex. I see rifleman dreads. I see usefull units in each slot. I see force org slot swaps. I see ironclad dreads. i see a plethora of battle brothers.

I see atsknf and combat tactics and combat squads.

i will give that tactical squads leave something to be desired.

The fiends should have been elites IMO. At least then you could back them up with a couple of tanks.

I would have like to have seen something along the lines of a blight drone for FA.

If they wanted to sell fiends they both should have been elites. Who can waste a heavy support slot on a melee unit? You can play Chaosnidzilla!

The Chosen unit in the Dark Vengence Box...

Is... 90+18
1xPower Axe 15
1xPower Fist 25
2xLightning Claws 30
Champ with Power Maul +15

For a total of 193 points. Round up to 200. If you drop Lightning Claw guy, that drops 48pts from that, bringing it to a more sane 145 pts. That... unit... is... terrible. Phil Kelly forgot that Chaos doesn't have an open-topped transport.

Reading through it, you can actually give 5 dudes a Plasma Gun. (Up to 4 can swap, then +1 guy can swap). Anyway, you can do 90pts for the unit, give the champ nothing, then add 75 points for 5 plasma guns, for a total of 165 points.

That'll give you 5 S7 AP2 shots at 24", 10 at 12". Seems not bad, in a Rhino???

Infiltrating in a rhino?!!... oh wait.

If they are in a rhino. only two of those guns can be shot. If you take abbadon and make them scoring. you could maybe take the 5 plasmagun squad and stick it on an objective. 5 plasmaguns is fairly scarey. we know this from vet squads. except the vet squads are scoring and drive around blasting stuff from a chimera. You could take Abbadon AND Ahriman and then you can make d3 units infiltrating troops!

Hard to know what to do with Chosen. truthfully. seems a waste since they are the only two attack models that come with bp/cc/bolter base. but have so much trouble getting into combat (well, thats not true, they can set themselves up to be charged pretty easily...)

I think i'm just going to use the DV chosen models as Champions for my CSM squads. they are ornate enough and stand out against the rank and file. Some of them will just have super-nifty looking CC weapons.

The DV models look awesome. But now that we have actual points. (And assuming you play DA as SM)

765 v 535ish?

And that's before the brutal ap2 advantage the da have.