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I think what Paz is saying, Scott, is don't be a hypocritical dick.

Veyure wrote:I think what Paz is saying, Scott, is don't be a hypocritical dick.

I understand that Greg. It's just impossible to take it seriously when it's paired up with the exact behaviour he's railing against in the same post. I think if you want to highlight what you think is a problem it's only possible to do it credibly if you focus on the issue (Unsportsmanlike post game slander of a player's army) and not pollute the focus by violating the same principle in the same post (Unsportsmanlike post game slander of a DIFFERENT player's army). As is it just reads like whining.

FWIW I feel the pain of a player who loves and army, collects it, and plays it when the army book is seen to be really overpowering. I had been a collector of Demonic Legion armies in Warhammer for around a decade and they kept on upping the power curve of the book. I had to quit playing that army as it was just nuts. It wasn't fun for my opponent and that means it was no longer a fun army for me. It sucks. It's not any players fault and it's a HUGE weakness of the GW army systems that every once in a while they just plain old get a book wrong. It really throws off the entire hobby when it happens. Don't know if that's the case for 40K but in 7th ed Fantasy they cranked out about 3 books in a row that sunk the whole game for me. That's the end of my old man Warhammer perspective anyway.

Alright Scott, I can see what you're saying. You feel I'm being te hypocritical one, by attacking Mike's lash list after the fact, something I derided mike and Tim for doing. Maybe you're right. I am frustrated at seeing the casual use of lash, and a certain demographic here beig okay with it all of a sudden, when for years we've always looked down on this.
But u are right, u don't play 40k, and using legions for fantasy as an example is not the same. Daemons were called out as overpowered "as an army". You can have csm lists, quite a few infact, without spamming armor and lashes. Yup. It's crazy but true. Maybe if it was thematic, I could see it, like an all slaanesh army, modeled up. But this is not the case.

But the truth Scott? I would have not come down on mike for this list, which he did previously post, until I saw him playing Ian, and getting upset about some aspec of their game, like kill points. You can't stand on solid rhetoric if you are sinking in hypocracy.
Imagine u are playing against the cheesiest fantasy list (not army) possible, and you don't coo ment all game, but after a frustrating game, the other guy starts talking about your cheesiness...


Mike- I don't mean all this as a personal attack on your character. I think you are a nice guy, and you make games fun. I just wish you wouldn't play One of the Internet template cheese lists that a lot of younger players might jump on as a win button. But it's your hobby and your choice. I'll give ya shit about it, but I'll still go for a pint after

I'de like to know when defilers got cheasy. Or when dreadnoughts of any kind, especially unpredictable chaos ones, topped the cheese charts. (psyfle dreads anyone?) Without lash, the list is largely mediocre. Even with it, any good gunline army is going to eat it up. How many AV 12 can DE Pop a turn? speeders? assault bikes? Grey Hunters missile spam? yeah.

re: Lash.
both of the GK players i've played recently neglected to bring Psychic defense.
Scott's Genestealers were going to take a beating, lash or no lash, they were alone 30 inches across the board, unsupported, on turn 2 of Dawn of War.


edit/addition:

One of the Internet template cheese lists that a lot of younger players might jump on as a win button.

Hrm, zilla has never been an internet cheese list. if you check the dates of the forum posts, i put a version up here 2 days before BOLS posted theirs, and even they don't consider it viable competitive list. A search online shows no major tournament wins for chaoszilla or any variant of it... ever. My highlander list includes 1 defiler,1 unit of oblits, and 1 dreadnought.. and i came in 4th. The last tournament, i played strictly Tzeench marked princes and Thousand Sons. no lash, no dreads... and i won 1st place.

I would also like to debunk the idea that you can have "quite a few" chaos lists with the current dex and still be compeitive. you have lash, you have obliterators and you have overcosted ultramarines without ATSKNF.

Ironically, Grey Knights are one of the armies that has access to psychic defence. Yet most GK players seem to trot out the psychadelic grenades over the psychic defence then complain about the Lash. Nobody complained about Lash before it got nerfed, NOW it's a problem? Let's get a grip here. Necrons also have access to psychic defence, albeit in a limited form. Paz, the fact that you suggest a 4th edition codex like CSM is overpowered is frankly a little ridiculous. The Lash is one the few playable options in the book for building a viable 5th edition list as Mike pointed out.

BTW if you don't like getting lashed, consider shooting the Daemon princes. They are toughness 5 and have a 3+ save. Can you kill 4-5 space marines in a shooting phase? If so, you can stop Lash! If your army can't shoot a Daemon prince (or two) dead in a single shooting phase then maybe it's time to rethink your army.

I can deal with the defilers, the dreads, the oblits, and the princes. i WIll take casualties. I can fight back and cause causalties. That's the game. i can crowd in cover. I can advance and shoot. Lash ruins all of that. I play the only army in the game with no vehicles. lash reaches 24 inches, shadows of thewarp goes 12. No good for me.

A challenge is a challenge, that's cool. I am used to uphill batTles, since I play Tyranids, have since I started, And they have NEVER been a power army. they have been average at best. But the more I think about that league quarterfinals game I had last weeK, the more I feel I could not win it. even iF i could go back with 20/20 hindsight vision on the game, I'd still lose.

either way, thread meandered, ran its course and circled back, so I'm done with it.

I'll be certain to keep my frustration to myself next time. i had a 66% chance to have the advantage. Voth still plays games and his opponents all Sieze on him, haha.

Its only a game, a fun game, a non-tourney game, and way too much hullabaloo when the consensus from us that played said game is that we had fun and appreciated it. I'm too old and fat to worry about plastic doodsmen drama.

Thursday after next I'm staying for a pint after, so somebody better show up and play me, cuz its just sad to drink by oneself.

Tim- I did not say the codex was overpowered. I said lash and maxed dreads was. In my opinion.

Mike- agreed. I posted my grievance, then I digressed. You know how I and some other players feel about lash, now we are just whipping a dead horse. Apologies.

Ok, this conversation has gotten way off topic and since this has a lot to do with me I feel I should chime in again on what this is really about. First of all, for those of you who weren't there (Scott, Termagant), while we all appreciate the input, you have no frame of reference and therefore don't really know what we're talking about and have really pulled this thread of track. This is NOT about GK, or lash, or whatever else is cheese, this is thread about respect. Respect for a player regardless of what list they brought. We both bought OP lists and things played out in the only way they could have, resulting in a victory for me.

Now, since my posts have largely been ignored I'm going to restate some things. THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT'S CHEESE OR OP. This is about complaining about an unchangeable result and telling me I would have lost had it gone any other way, but guess what, it didn't, and so the classy thing would be to admit defeat, say good game, and try again next time (side note: I'm sure you'll beat me next time Mike ). If winning was all important I would never play 40k because I always lose. So, to restate once again THIS IS ABOUT RESPECT. I thought Mike played with class all the way but no one likes to have their victory belittled by post game rhetoric. Especially when it's incited by someone who wasn't involved in the game at all.

P.S. Sorry for the wall of text

TL;DR THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT CHEESE IT'S ABOUT RESPECT AND DIGNITY. EVERYONE WHO PLAYS WITH IT DESERVES IT IN RETURN.

Edit: wording.

The fix for this is easy. Thursday night games need to henceforth have wagers paid in Beer attached to them.

re next game Ian: anything can happen 16.7% of the time in 40K!

Just look at Marks win record vs me, he didnt even make the cheese list and we're tied 50/50 over 6(?) games. pfft!

Well said Ian. I always overstate things to make a point. That's just how I roll. So if I say, "Draigowing can't lose annihiliation games." I really mean that they are more likely than not to win an annihilation game. If I say, "That army is stupid." I am calling out Mat Ward, not you. Please separate the army book from the player. I did not mean to be disrespectful and if it was construed that way, I apologize. But for gawds sake, stand up for yourself man! Don't mope in the corner and sulk. Fight back! Paz trashed my army, I don't give a crap about it because I don't respect his opinion. There. See how easy that is?

yea, but no one respects what that, whats-his-face, tim-guy thinks or says; they just "c) Don't give a crap what that opinionated blowhard thinks." :P:P

for those who lack a sarcasm/humor detector, that was lighthearted sarcasm.

but in regards to the core meat and potatoes of what this thread was attempting to state, no one should talk smack about the army/codex of the person they're playing, especially not when they're in the room. No matter how much you don't mean any insult to the guy, if you pile enough of it on, it eventually becomes hurtful to them. Regardless what you think of the codex, saying it's a bad codex implies they're a bad person for playing it. Not everyone can let stuff like that slide like water off a duck's back and not take insult from it. Lets all have the decency to not do this to people in our community guys. "You've got to BE-LIEVE! be-lieve in PEACE, man!"


on a side note, i'd like to state that we hear how people want a challenge around here, and to face lists that are uphill battles and will test them fully to pull out a win. Grey Knights gives you that challenge. So does the balanced Forgeworld units. and yes, they're balanced now; they've had since IA: Volume 6 to fix a lot of the stuff that originally wasn't, and all the new stuff is of standard codex-quality balance, so lets not jump on beating that old dead horse.
If you truely want your challenge and the chance to prove you can out-think all the benefits a Paladin or Henchmen or Forgeworld list, then do it. If you just want to stand back and bemoan it and say its too hard to face, then hey; you're not as into a challenging opponent as you claim to be, simple as that. I would play grey knights without question, personally. and any other codex. AND forgeworld models. There's a couple that i'll go "aw crap, you fielding one of 'THOSE' things" on occassion, because i've underestimated it before and got my butt handed to me for it. but i never, ever, say "that list/codex/army is BS" after a game. Damn challenging and i'll have to rethink how to fight against that, yes. which btw, people will take as a compliment when you put it that way.

anyways, that's all i wanted to post; i got wedding invitations to design; july comes fast.

People bitching about lash? Really?? Is this 2005? They made it worse ffs.

Well Ginger, sorry I derailed your precious thread.

If someone disrespects you, refuse to play them. That's what I('d) do.

Or if you take/issue a challenge, tell your opponent 'I am bringing GK. If you think they're cheese and are going to whine and complain, please challenge someone else.'

I'll take on your GK anytime. I don't think they're nearly as good as everyone says.

gluvzer wrote:

People bitching about lash? Really?? Is this 2005? They made it worse ffs.

Lash is one of the worst ideas GW has ever came up with. I'll bitch about lash until it is abolished or the den stops selling chips

P.S I hope my new avatar will chill everyone out a bit

Termagant wrote:

I'll take on your GK anytime. I don't think they're nearly as good as everyone says.

Wait until their 20 point basic trooper hits your multi-wound toughness 6 model and kills it with a single wound. Good times!

That's just my opinion of course.

So what can be learned from this thread is:
Tim 'can' be a poop-head, Ian has a hole where his stick should be, and Paz likes to defend his boyfriend. Oh and everyone is willing to battle against anything unless it defeats them.

Good story so far. How will it end.....?

PS, Hopefully I didn't hurt anyone's feelings otherwise i may have to apologize like everyone else who send out a flame then try to retract it after they realize they may have seemed like a dick that didn't think. HA another jibe at the community. Great stuff

Or I could shoot hium down with all my multiple shot guns and beat him up with my small stuff.

Or I could play with my Orks and outshoot him.

Timbo wrote:

Termagant wrote:

I'll take on your GK anytime. I don't think they're nearly as good as everyone says.

Wait until their 20 point basic trooper hits your multi-wound toughness 6 model and kills it with a single wound. Good times!

That's just my opinion of course.

Timbo wrote:
Wait until their 20 point basic trooper hits your multi-wound toughness 6 model and kills it with a single wound. Good times!

That's just my opinion of course.

Or wait until they start dating your multi-wound t6 model , get it preggies, and invite it to meet their parents.

Papa Driago- "Wel miss, what do you do for a living?"

Trygon- "MrrrooarrRRAaaaagh."

Driago- "DaaaAAaaaadddd... you're embarrassing meeeeee!"

System Commander wrote:Sorry kids.. missed the conversation.. was busy having the worst vacation of my life.. but looks like everythiung more or less resolved itself.

Was it Winnpeg?

@dana
People on this thread are bitching about it for a totaly different reason than you. I understand how you feel about it when I look into your eyes and put my greasing fingers on your models every chance I get.

Complaining about the game value of lash is laughable. We went over all of this 5 or 6 years ago when it was actually good. It's ok now AND it needs to roll to hit now.... It didn't before.

ps. I like your post Greg.