Breaking news: pot calling kettle black

So I witnessed pure silliness yesterday. I heard two older players commenting on how a paladin list was "so overpowered, too cheesy".

The other force facing these paladins?

2 lash princes with wings
3 dreadnoughts
2 defilers
Obliterators
And some marines.

Come on guys, have a little more class than to rag one someone's army comp after the game, loudly, like he's not there, when you roll this cheesefest.

"this aggression will not stand man!"
-the dude

The Paz is wise, we should listen to him.

I think your overreacting a bit Paz, I would play against it and him again anytime, Ian is a good guy and the army is cool.

If anything i was a bit frustrated by the mission we rolled, more than anything. Trying to win an annihilation game vs an army with 6 total KP's @ 2000 points is an uphill climb.

overall, I'm not seeing any problem with Ians, or any draigo-wing armies so far. I've played vs two GK rock armies, one an overwhelming victory and this one, a narrow loss.

I agree with you Mike, I thought we had a great game and I wouldn't hesitate to play you again, it's just frustrating to see 2 of the older crowd, who should be ushering younger players into the game, complain about lists and the like when, let's face it calling you guys "power gamers" wouldn't be a great stretch. We both brought incredibly strong lists, we both had good and bad luck (invul saves and pie plates galore, yeesh), and in the end I thought it was a great shoot out, but sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. To rag on another persons list like that is a tad more childish than I think we'd all like to see, just because I think we'd all like to maintain a certain level of sportsmanship for the sake of our image and again, to encourage younger folks to get into the hobby. Did I have an advantage because it was annihilation? Maybe. Did I have any other advantages? Heck no. I had 3 models left ton the table and that was mostly do to lucky rolling, so please, guys, next time just take it for what it is: A great game between fellow enthusiasts.

P.S. I shouldn't have to but I think I should justify me playing a Draigo Wing by saying that I started with Eldar and moved to Dark Eldar, and as a novice player I've lost probably 90% of my matches all time. Which should go to show, you don't need to win to have a good time.

Rock, scissors, pieplate?

Draigowing is cheesy. So is lash. Lash is so overpowered. I have never lost to a Chaos list that doesn't have lash, and I think I am about 1-5 against lash lists, and the 1 win was narrow, and he only had 1 lash, not 2.

But yeah, if you both bring the cheese, have fun with it. Or the lack of fun maybe.

That it, I'm calling out all the cheesy players.

Ben: Deathwing, they're all termies? Cheesy.
Tim: c'mon 3 thunderfires? and what's with all the melta? Cheesy.
Stelmach: Descent of Angels or FW-based? cheesy.
GK players: Purefier/Paladin and/or henchmen build? cheesy
All the wolf players: JoWW. Cheesy.
Nid players: Hive guard/Tervigon combo? cheesy
Eldar players: Guide/Doom? Jetbike seer council? Eldrad? Cheesy.
Black Templar players: Termies w/ 2 heavy weapons? cheap Typhoons? cheesy.
Guard: Vets and Chimera Spam? Tank squadrons? cheesy.
Paz: he distracts you with awesome conversions and paint jobs. Cheesy.
That "Roland" guy: Mech marines and Mortis Dreads? Cheesy. and I won't even get into his "Counts-as-Ben" list.....

Yes, I'm being funny. Every list has parts that are over and under effecient. I can think of maybe 1 player locally whose list completely ignores the over-effecient stuff. Everyone elses (mine included!) has at least SOMETHING that someone else will consider "cheesy" or "beardy". No, I don't like Lash either, but there it is, right in the codex. Yes it allows you to do something no other army can do. So do Hive guard. So do GK. So do.... I think I made my point....

Everyone here is pretty much on the up and up about what thay play and what they usually take. If you only want to play against tough lists, do so. If you only want to play fluffy list, do so. If you only want to play against ppl who have brown hair, fine. If you only want to play against supermodels... you're SOL.

I have no problem with players who play GK. I also have no problem playing against GK. I enjoy the challenge personally. But I am on record as saying the army is overpowered. We've been through all this before and I stand by whatever I said when we hashed this all out months ago. All of my problems are with the book, not the players. Ian can play that army against me anytime, but if he can't take a little good-natured ribbing about it then maybe Grey Knights aren't for him. Or did he not ask you to step in on his behalf?

Termagant wrote:Draigowing is cheesy. So is lash. Lash is so overpowered. I have never lost to a Chaos list that doesn't have lash, and I think I am about 1-5 against lash lists, and the 1 win was narrow, and he only had 1 lash, not 2.

But yeah, if you both bring the cheese, have fun with it. Or the lack of fun maybe.

challenge accepted!

Timbo wrote:I have no problem with players who play GK. I also have no problem playing against GK. I enjoy the challenge personally. But I am on record as saying the army is overpowered. We've been through all this before and I stand by whatever I said when we hashed this all out months ago. All of my problems are with the book, not the players. Ian can play that army against me anytime, but if he can't take a little good-natured ribbing about it then maybe Grey Knights aren't for him. Or did he not ask you to step in on his behalf?

No I did not ask Pascal to step in on my behalf, we were both just pretty frustrated after last night and Pascal decided to bring it up. I can take a good natured ribbing but when someone just talks shit about you while you're in the room it's kind of disheartening, especially since you got my list wrong and didn't watch the game at all. GK may be over powered but that's not why I play them, I didn't choose them because I wanted an auto win army. I resolved to play GK before I even read the codex because I wanted a low model count, super elite army, opposite to what I had been playing so many years. Don't get me wrong Tim I respect you a lot as a 40k player and you might not remember but when I was in elementary school and Readers was still around we'd come in all the time, and that was my spring board into 40k, you were a hero to all us little nerdlings. Now imagine having that same guy shit on you while you're in the room, ya not cool. This isn't really a debate about what's OP and what isn't because that's been done to death and we all know the score, this is more a matter of respect. We both brought cheesy lists but to turn around and rag on me after I beat you is a slap in the face. The respect for your opponent shouldn't stop at the handshake.

EDIT: P.S. Tim if you wanna have a game some time I'm sure you could teach me a thing or two.

Hive guard? If that's your idea of Nid cheese, that's pretty weak. I would have expected someone to complain about Doom of Malan'tai. Except he's unique.

But if someone actually thinks Hive Guard are cheesy and doesn't want to play against them, I accept the challenge, as long as you don't bring any vehicles. Because without them, nids can't break a vehicle.

I really need a sarcasm font...

Scott, my point wasn't that Hive Guard are cheesy, or any of that other stuff I listed. I was making fun of what everyone call something "cheesy" while having something that could easily be called cheesy in their own list. Hive Guard are an awesome unit for the points and are practically a no-brainer. (note to self. Pick up 2-4 HG for Nid list) Someone who doesn't play Nids or who is a sore loser might say they are cheesy b/c they break a basic rule of the game (direct fire w/o LOS). They are welcome to call them that, but HG (and Lash) are perfectly legal. And they are such a no-brainer you might as well figure out how to play against it, b/c you are going to see them.

Okay, I won't put my stuff in cover so he can't lash me out of cover. Oh wait, he'll just shoot me then without needing to lash me.

Or maybe I'll kill the Daemon prince before he reaches me. Oh wait. All of my guns are 12-18 inches range.

Or maybe I'll stay more than 24 inches away so he can't lash me. Then I lose to his shooting, b/c none of mine that matters any goes beyond 18 inches.

You picked a bad example. Maybe I'll just dodge chaos players and if I get matched up with one in a tourney, hope to get lucky.

hey scott.

lets replay our league playoff sometime, i'll play the same list. but drop in two nurgle princes, in place of the lash prince and sorcerer. no psychic powers at all.

i'de like to see how it fairs.

Just out of curiousity, does this thread begin with Paz ragging on players for calling someone's army cheesy, then immediately cite another players army as in fact being cheesy. Then continue to tell people to be more classy and not rag on someone's army comp and then in the same sentence rag on another army comp as cheesy?

"Uh, excuse me. Mark it zero. Next frame. "
-Walter

I do not wish to replay any game. The result stands as it is.

Funny enough, I want a shot at these cheesy GK I keep hearing about. I don't think they live up to the hype.

If someone wants Cheese Knights, Lego could always go on the march. I'd just have to figure out again which guys are which again.

I dont see why people are scared of Dreigo Wing list. THEY DONT WORK... I've seen so many battle reports were they get las or melta'ed to death, or just boltered to death with every thing. You have to play against them differently. Mini War Gaming just came out with a Dave pie plate challenge, against a dreigo wing list. The battle was pathetic.
And Mike I HATE LASH... lol But still our last battle was a learning experience. I would like to battle your highlander list again any time.

One advantage my lash lists have afforded me lately is plasma cannons. Not too many people play them, (favoring missiles or auto cannons/assault cannons) and they are particularly adept at killing overly expensive models, like Purifiers and Terminators

PM me with a day and time James and we'll go again! Tell the wife you gotta come into town to pick up some diesel conditioner. i'll give ya a deal

Woot, I got left off the cheese list!

... Wait a sec

Sorry Mark:)

"Necron Players: Stormlord/Scarab farms? Reanimation protocals? Cheesy." Better?

I was actually trying to think of SOMETHING that someone might think of as "cheesy" from every army. I just forgot about Crons for some reason.

To be clear, I'm poking a little fun, and one man's cheese is anothers basic unit. Everyone has something in their list that's SUPER efficient for the points, but that alone does not make cheese:)

I'd call it cheese if it basically wins you the game alone or swings the game too dramatically without any real easy counter.

Ask James what he thinks. I laughed when he got lashed in the tourney, costing him the game. Not so funny when it happens to me. My 20 man genestealer squad with broodlord and Tyranid Prime got killed in one shooting phase to that spider dread thing, 2 dreads, and some oblits. They were spread out well and over half in cover. Suddenly they're not in cover and clustered together. One battle cannon shot, one roll of hit on the scatter de, and 13 dead.

Scott- read the title buddy. I'm not saying draigowing isn't overpowered. I'm saying if u run the very hieghts of cheese, don't go calling out that on other players.
I'd rather face draigowing that dual lash princes (does anyone remember how much shittalk cam got for running dual lash princes ONCE?). At least with draigowing I can control the battlefield.

Beau- I see what termagant is saying here man. Sure there is a lot of single cheesy units, or overpowered builds. A all dread/defiler/lash prince list is like, 3 cheeses in one though. Lash is my single most hated rule- if u aren't playing mech spam, say goodbye to your troops. Robs the game of tactical flexibility- you have to respond by hiding in your rhinos. That's boring.

Mike- id just like to say man, you are the nicest and most enjoyable lash player I've met. DGoesn't forgive dual lash princes tho bro. :p you could come into a game with a hue smile and a plate of cookies, and I still wouldnt play against the list you brought te other night, with any of my armies.

Tim- I listened to you basically say that driego is unbeatable, and no fun. If I came up after a game and was shit talking your army (3 thunder fires? G that's silly and totally unbeatable! Gosh who would play that?) you can't say you wouldnt be annoyed.

Tl:dr- I can stand a lot of lists, but one that lets someone else move my models around, a lot, and leaves me little control other than staying in a vehicle or staying more than 24 inches away is bullshit. Sorry it is.
Now, other players feel differently, that's fine. Ian had fun in his game, I'm just different. But if you run this kinda list, don't be looking for sympathy because you fought something as boring to fight as your army.

There's a very informative article here you may find useful:

https://huntersofthewarp.forumakers.com/t2645-the-pen-is-mightier-than-the-powersword

But for the record, I said Draigowing was tough to beat in an annihilation mission. That's all. The army is beatable in sieze ground at the very least. It's armies like this that have pushed the game towards Nova-type scoring systems IMHO.

So... it IS acceptable to call an army list cheesy so long as you don't think your own list is cheesy. And not in public. Got it. Otherwise it's just not classy.