So just what is the Tuff League? Well..

OK, so everybody's been talking about the Tuff League and even though I've been trying to steer it into a specific direction, my efforts seems to be for naught.

Following is a brief explanation of what I was/am hoping for in the league:

IS NOT:
Win at All Costs, Be as cheezy as possible, Stomp your opponents face in while laughing at his misfortune.
IS:
Competetive, Hard-fought, Powerful Lists and Solid Strategies.

What this means:
I DO want to bring my A-game, a powerful list, and play tough, competetive games where we're both trying to win, but NOT at the expense of having fun (For either player).
I do NOT want to specifically design my list to destroy one army that I know I'm about to face. I do Not want to use every possible cheezy/broken strategy, and fight for every inch of 'good for me bad for you' rules interpretation I can.

Competetive yet sportsmanly is what I was hoping it would be, but I feel that many people are just seeing it as 'the alternate place to go if you just want to play with that uber-cheap list that "normal" people won't face.'

The fact that many people keep referring to it as the place to take your cheesiest list and try your hardest to just stomp your opponent without regards to fun or coolness is not helpful. It's driving away people that I believe would otherwise be interested. Especially with the caveat of having to pick one or the other.

So am I alone in my view of what the tuff league is supposed to be? I figured I'd better ask since I'm supposed to be running it and my views don't seem to be lining up with what I'm reading.

I think you're alone... I mean otherwise we'll need a third league for cheesy assholes like me and matt.

If i can offer an opinion, i would just get it up and running and see how things go. It takes time to develop any kind of league, and you will have allot to figure out as you go, and will probably have to do allot of policing to get things to the point you want them at. I started playing 40k in saskatoon about 6 years ago. Back then the league was sometimes less than 8 people... its pretty big now... but 5 years...

I have run leagues for a few different game systems, and i know how easy it can be to get discouraged when people dont see your vision, or dont comply with the rules that you implement. Again i know i have not been around for quite some time, but im pretty excited about the tuff division. The divide between hobby, and competitive play can break groups down very easily and i think that if we can find a home for both camps it will make our club one of the most dynamic and impressive around. I used to travel all over western canada when i was taking part in the hall of heros program. Nowhere did i ever see such a large and active group, and saskatoon is pretty backwater.

Trying to run an event with gamers is like herding cats. We tend to be highly individual, non conformist, and intelligent which kind of comes with the territory. However from the brief conversation we had i think that you are very capable, and that if you work at it the tuff league will be very successful. This is especially true if some of the new members continue to push and organize tournaments.

You can always shoot me a PM if there is anything that you need a hand with. Not sure i would be useful as i have been away so long, but the offer is there.

I can't think of anyone other than me that is voicing the "cheese league" mentality. Though how you described your wishes for your division is what the originl league was about. guys who played in fluff league didnt play to lose. Everyone wanted to win and everyone tried to win at the best of their capability. A-game is never left at home when real men compete even when it's just who can push a plastic guy with more style. When robyn was suggesting this new division i read it as a place for the well made power lists and a beat your opponent with anything you got. Those games ARE fun if both players are doing the same thing. Thats why gladiator tournaments are popular.

Anyway, i think you belong in the fluff league jim, that's what i think.

Could someone post some of these really che... bad... weird... lists that have been plaguing the league?

So far I've yet to see something that made me believe it was che... like that.

A good list will usually beat a che... god damn it. it'll be a "cheesy" list because from what I've seen, the word "cheesy" simply applies to anything people either can't dream up a way to beat or something they don't like on paper.

Even just some concepts - what is cheesy/beardy to you?

Hmm, yes, that seems to happen quite a bit.

But in all honesty, I think most of this "cheesy list spamming regime" is nothing more than a boogieman.

so... some evidence would be nice, is all I'm saying.

(and no I don't think people who play chaos suck, if I thought that then I'm their malevolent king of suck for choosing to play Necrons )

First off you may be correct alex, i havent been around to play for a while. BUT i wanted to hop in here, and just ask that nobody actually post up any of these lists if they have been used. It will essentially single people out again, which is something i think we all want left behind.

I myself do not quite understand the whole "cheesy" card that everyone keeps calling

There's nothing in this edition like Cheese Falcons... I mean you could point fingers at Lash of Submission, or Seer Council, or some Tau Battle Suit thing that I hear Tyson uses....

competitive play simply means not using bad ideas in my mind. As Jim put it, its bringing something you consider competitive... like I could make a list of 60 Khorne Berzerkers and Kharn the betrayer, but I don't think it would fare well,, ergo its non-competitive.

I see the Tuff league simply as something designed for players who have a decent understanding of the game's Meta, and would not like players complaining that they are too good/broken and might table their opponent if their strategy works.

what the hell is the point of the tuff league then i thought it was the plae to use unothadox tactics and controversial stratagies and units.

and i thought the fluff league was a place where painting was emphisized and. things like duel lash tri vindicator and farsight bomb were frowned upon.

Whoa, watch your tone there Ben.

Alex I literally grew a beard in anticipation of this league. My Chaos land raider thieves are coming!

Beardy List:

Khorne Chaos Lord in Terminator armour with Demon weapon and Combi-Plasma - 170pts
3 x Terminators, with landraider - 310pts
3 x Terminators, with landraider - 310pts
3 x Terminators, with landraider - 310pts
6 x Chaos Marines with landraider - 300pts
6 x Chaos Marines with landraider - 300pts
6 x Chaos Marines with landraider - 300pts

2000 Point list... I mean with all my landraider thief fluff I'm writing this list really belongs in the fluff league, but all the eye rolls just aren't worth it.

not much time to say a lot, getting ready to head down to the den. I can talk to people there, too if anybody wants to continue any of this in person.

Two things i need to say.

Cam - Thank you for the support, that post in particular made me feel much better about what's happening. I guess I was getting kinda frustrated a bit early.

Ben - it is, I was worried about people viewing it as being too victory-focused and not fun, but it Appears I was over-reacting to some personal frustrations.

smackman wrote:I think you're alone... I mean otherwise we'll need a third league for cheesy assholes like me and matt.

That's why I'm starting the high rollers league...

haha, $250 entry fee, cocaine and hookers... I like it.

Yea, in the theme of the discussion, if i was not selling my chaos i would for sure join the tuff league. I have always wanted to try 2 lashes, 9 oblits and a couple of plague marine units to score.

I have not been keeping up on the crazy lists, but when i first saw thunderwolf cavalry i was thinking that 15 of those guys might be a nice way to make enemies. With no models though, im not sure if people have tried it.

Then there is the vulcan attack bike spam. Again, dont know if this is that great, but the thought of 9 attack bikes on the table with twin linked multimeltas sounds ugly. Not sure what else i would fill it out with though.

Dunno, those are a few thoughts. I thought the Fatecrusher list was another notorious one out there, but i have never experienced it.