"Power Gaming" - why bother???

Paz wrote:Alright, couple of thoughts.

Tyson= I love Farsight. Seriously, one of the coolest characters out there. but lets face it, if you want a fluffy army, you are only playing half the story. A= lots of crisis suites, great! lots of drones? not so much. Remember, these guys are lacking in tech! masses of floating shield drones, not what he is about.
B= fire warriors! remember, O'shovah is leading a WARRIOR caste rebellion, so 50% (or more) of those mothers should be fire warriors. Lastly, Broadsides. they are 0-1! If you are going fluffy, I would not include any of the 0-1 units, because the enclaves don't have many, if any!. So yes, I think your list is not as fluffy as it could be. you have taken the O'shovah list, and tried to build as powerful a list out of your restrictions as possible. I have not played you, so I can't call you a power-gamer in any sense of the term, but I can say, I wouldn't be psyched to play against you, nor would I rank you with the fluffy army group, in all honesty.

Keep it real bro's, and it'll all be cool.

Ok, heres where you and I disagree on the subject of fluff. First off, I took one look at the perspective of a group with little spare technology and do you know what it said to me? If farsight is lacking in technology so much then he can't be sparing his officers and expensive crisis suits as if they were cannon fodder. You honestly think a force with little resources would sack its expensive things like that? I work off the belief that Farsight would use a method that is LESS likely to cause serious irriplacable damage. I.E. Shield drones. Now as for the broadsides, you know what... I like broadsides. Playing a fluff army doesn't mean scacrificing what you enjoy playing. Especially when there is already provisions to include broadsides in his army list. If he has them, you don't think he would use them when he, the all important commander is in battle? I don't think so. And the thing that boggles my mind about it is that broadsides are 1 in 6 restricted models. I haven't flooded my list with these restricted items. I took ONE.

Is this army as fluffy as it can be? You have severely misread my intentions that I posted. I said I played farsight because I thought he was cool. I never said I was going to cop out and look online for Farsights cleche army and copy and paste it so that I can be as close to what 40k storyline says he should be. And then I was going to find his paint scheme and make sure all the details are exact so I can be what other people think he should be. No. I took the character and did my own thing with it. In terms of his paintjob, I am working on what I like, which is a style that nowhere near resembles any of the tau colors. In terms of the army, I play what I like to play. You call me abusive for using drones? Drones are basically a racial specialty of the tau. Thats like calling out a space marine for using droppods.

Now whether or not you agree with my take on the list, it doesn't really matter if you believe its a fluff list or not. I mearly stated my intentions when I made it. The army you prescribe is not my army. It is not designed by me. Its not the army I want to play. Why would I play something like that? I disagree with your take on the drones. I like broadsides. I still take a decent amount of firewarriors. And if you deside this isn't the army you want to face then by all means don't face it. But does your army in game rules not stand a chance against mine? No, you would do fine. I haven't seen alot of lists that my army wins against before the game begins. Its not designed for that. So whatever reason you decide you don't want to play it, I have no clue what they are other than a disagreement with how the fluff works.

Cushak- Exactly right. How far does this go? When building an army it's a the great grey beast and not neccesarily anything other than subjective. Making a better army that helps reduce your weaknesses vs. making an army that will crush your opponent before he blinks is impossible to find any common ground between a group of gamers. Some people will tell you that an entire army book is "broken" or too strong. Things like the Demon book in fantasy is like that. But waddaya do? All you can do is just sort of weed out the extreme examples of someone abusing the tools they have at their disposal. Sometimes it's really obvious in Fantasy. Max characters, min core and max rare slots etc. are usually a fair indicator of the style of non-game your opponent has in mind for you.

But it's totally subjective. Everyone mostly agrees on the extreme examples but anything in between is impossible to gauge collectively I find.

I really think Scott's post sums up quite directly what us "veterans" thoughts on "powergaming"are. And he does get extra credit for often and random shirt removal at Brooklyn's. If any of you have been skimming, give it another read. Self-reflection is key... does my list min/max? does it utilize a specific rule that may not have been the intent of said rule?

As Cam mentioned earlier, tournaments used to be a big deal around here. There was one in Saskatoon every 2 or 3 months with people coming from Regina (Regina actually had a tourny every month that we would always try to attend), Winnipeg, and Calgary. Sometimes between 30 and 40 would show. This helped eliviate alot of "powergaming" problems. People entered these tourny's to win, and a powerlist (although possibly winning all games) rarely stood a chance of winning overall because of composition, painting, and sportsmanship (and yes, your list will effect sportsmanship marks no matter what people say and how it shouldn't) marks. For awhile it was rare to see armies without paint because everyone was always getting ready painting and testing new lists for the next big event. Things are now very different....

@Reagan - Your list is by no means at all a "power list" Mike was referencing a army from 3rd edition that he used. Falcons were unkillable and you could move 12 and shoot out of them..... like he said not fun for any oponent.

@Greg - Scott and I flame you because we luv ya! You big lug!

@holycause - I'll be very direct.... Your posts are definately coming off very poorly on this board, having already been called out a couple of times now for your them. If it is your intent to get kicked off the site.... by all means continue. If it is not, I really think you need to take an extra look at your posts before you post them and save yourself from having to explain after people take offence. This group and community has been around a long time, with some of the members in it for around 10 years now and are very good friends and aqaintences. And I know coming into a group like that can be tough. But it can easily be done (and has been done by many) by learning the group dynamic before posting how you would on a larger "no-face" group or forum. And like the league coordinator has already mentioned, your actions are making it hard for people to ever want to accept a came challenge from you.

Tyson= Whoa whoa whoa, slow down there, no need to go off the deep end. I wasn't saying Your army was in no way fluffy. Earlier you said you wanted to play a fun army, the farsight list. I think your use of lots of battle-suits is definitely a step in the right direction. And I did not say anything about your color scheme, so put a stopper on that line of thought. I play iron wolves great company, using a color scheme based off the iron knights for gosh sakes.
As to the drones, I do disagree with you there. The enclaves have loads of warrior caste who follow O'shovah, but a lot of the processing and tech replacement are not available. I have the first version codex in front of me right now (not the 2nd, loaned out, but they are fairly the same for fluff). Here's a direct quote:

"O'shovah and his followers have chosen to separate themselves from the Tau empire. As such, their resources are more limited and their forces generally less equipped. As such the following units are not available to an army led by O'shovah: ethereal caste members, gun drone squadrons, kroot 'etc etc' (p. 50, tau codex)"

Of course you can take crisis suite drones based off the rules, but the inability to take drone squads does speak to the unavailability of repair of drones ( in this dex) that, well, are freaking meat shields for the suits. So the enclave have all the weapons the warrior caste usually have loads of, such as crisis suits, fire warrior weapons, but that advanced stuff such as drones, broadsides, etc, are harder to come by, especially when you are constantly fighting orks, or as mercs against pirates and tyranid fleets! True, you only use one broadside squad, I was a bit hasty condemning such a cool model. I just assumed you attached fluffy to being unique by playing Farsight, my mistake. You took what was available for the list, and made something very competitive. Tau are not exactly wiping out at the tourneys lately, but you managed to find a combo that is very effective, and one I haven't even seen on the net before, so kudos there, really.
It doesn't change the fact that this is an army built to take the best possible combination of rules for wound allocations and such. So really, either you want all competitive because you are not going for super fluffy, or you want to play both a cool and balance competitive force, which, sorry, but I don' think you have.
You enjoy playing this list. Great! But spamming units such as crisis suites with loads of drones because they are fun for you, doesn't magically change the fact that this list can be construed as power-gaming. I'm sure the double lash multi-oblit CSM, and 132 ork boyz dudes I played last tourney in PA thought their units were just swell as well...

I do like what Robyn said. If you don't wanna be called a power-gamer, take a look at how your list looks, and balance that muther! Remember new guys, this is constructive criticism, you don't need to listen to a word I say, but you guys wanted the truth, no =I=censor=I= footing around, so here it is. Some of us have been holding back saying anything, (me in particular) but you are right, lets get this stuff aired out and in the open, no more stinky secrets!

just out of curiousity why do you think I'm trying to defend the farsight squad? I mean, I would if I thought Tyson needed backup/was being ganged up on, but I don't think either of those. I know he can handle himself in a debate, and I don't see a bunch of people ganging up and trying to whip him into their way of thinking, just a few people having an open discussion about what they think.

In fact, the only things I can recall saying about Farsight were telling Alex that it's a more powerful list than he may think (Which is what most of you guys seem to be saying anyways *L*), and to defend its fluff a bit when I mentioned to paz that I thought Tyson had several fire warrior squads (I've since learned that he has 4, not 6 as I originally thought).

I'm not trying to be argumentative, nor do I take your statement as some sort of offense, I just don't want people thinking that all the other (Completely unrelated) things I've been saying are in some way me trying to team up with my friend against you. The vast majority of what I've been saying lately has had nothing to do with Farsight or Tyson, But rather to do with A: how we can make this league work (Fitting the old guys together with the new and finding a way to bridge the gap), and B: Defending my own lack of painting skills.

As said allready, no offense, just clarifying and wondering if you've been reading something into what I'm saying other than what I meant to put forward

Well with regards to that, I know Librarium tends to have alot of "what unit is the most powerful" and "What army do you least like facing" threads, but they end up basically being everybody naming something different, and usually they all have good reasoning. *L*

Personally, I think it's more about the list overall, not any single unit - As has been pointed out to me (repeatedly and emphatically, I might add. ) by both Adam and Tyson since this thread arose, the problem with my tank list isn't any particular vehicle, it's the fact that that's ALL there is in the list.

Strangely, I showed them(And If it was just one of you two, I apologize for including the other, but I can't recall ATM) a list I had which has the same number of vehicles, but also has several infantry squads that AREN'T in vehicles, and they seemed to find it less cheezy than the current one.. even though I personally think it's the stronger list. *Confused*

But, as the great sage oft said "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong"

*EDIT: The list I speak of above has since been posted in the army list section, I'd like peoples take on it's cheeze to fun ration, as it's the list I've been trying to work towards since the 5th ed guard codex came out, and if it's gonna be considered a 'bad' list (For any reason), I'd like to hear those opinions before I finish buying all the pieces..

I have no problem going up against a guard tank list.. because I know if I can still get guys close.. im hitting the rear armor.. AND, my berserkers dont have to assault anymore like they were forced to do in past. Tank lists now definitely dont intimidate me. THey are definitely a tough list to go up against, but I think to the past to when they were even tougher and I feel a bit happy.

That's basically what I was sayin to'em *L*

Paz: The point you make on the drones is a fair one. Unfortunatly it is based off of information that has never been available to me. I am a new player who started in 5th ed. The current 4th ed Tau codex does not describe the same lack of drones, and in fact gun drone squads are not restricted. If that was not the case before, I'm sorry but I can't make my army based off of factoids that I don't have ANY access to.

Paz/Robyn: Going back to wound allocation, I have already tried to cover this in my previous post. I'm leaving it up to people. The reason why my units vary so much is beacause of the variety of weapons they carry to cover all situations. If people would rather fight a group with identical models and weapons chosen for their specific army its fine with me.

In addition, the idea of shooting farsight and not dealing any serious damage is daunting, but farsight represents over 1000 points. If you could kill him in one go, he wouldn't be table viable. And I don't mean power gaming I can't win with him I shouldn't play him. I mean I'm throwing away 1000 points before we play.

And lastly, I'm not argueing that its not a tough list. I'm not denying that wound allocation is a really frustrating thing to deal with. The sad fact is that I have an alternate list worked up but haven't been playing much other than control point matches since it was put together.

Fair enough Tyson, I will admit I haven't checked the 4th edition yet, just going from massive useless fluff memory. I want to make this clear, I am not trying to make a personal attack on you, I'm just commenting on your army selection. Thanks for taking it into consideration, and I hope to see that new alt list from ya!

p.s.= As A daemon player, I can tell ya, you WILL be losing that boss model in one round of shooting if you are not careful. It happens all the friggin time to my GD's, so tactics and being sneaky are good ways to combat that, instead of pouring piles of points of shield drones to make him a meatshield. Remember, FARSIGHT, he is all about the hit and run, being a sneaky mutha, and chopping up the orkses! (which is totally cool, those orks are ridiculous....)

Tyson (sorry to keep beating a dead horse) - I think it's clear that you want to play a list that adheres to the fluff and isn't overly cheezy, I truly believe that. Unfortunately you lose some credibility when your army consists of 4 minimum sized Troop choices with zero upgrades. If I recall correctly (fat chance!) 4 units of 6 Fire Warrios cost 240 points. Fielding 240 / 1750 points on Troops is not reasonable and I think that's the underlying cause of the resentment people may have towards your army.

I understand that it's tough to field Troops that you think suck (we can't all have IG Veterans and Ork boyz)but sometimes people have to bite the bullet and play with some underwhelming options. In 3rd Edition 10 BS3 Guardsmen with a Lascannon cost 85 points and you had to field them in multiples to get credit for one Troop choice! I can still remember how much we used to complain about it but that's the way it was and Guard players buckled down and made the best of it.

Now I'm not a Tau expert so I don't feel at all qualified to give advice on how to improve the Fire Warrior's lot but if you want people to give you the benefit of the doubt maybe try 'em out, based on your track record I'm sure you'll find a way!

On a related note I do want to mention that I've seen Tyson in action several times and each time he comes across as a pleasant, agreeable opponent who knows the rules and plays the game for fun. One of the reasons I started this fiasco of a post was to get the lines of communication open so that people are not ostracized for a crime they didn't even know they were committing. I've seen enough brutal lists in my day (Tim take a bow or I could just look in the mirror...) to not be surprised by anything a guy comes up with; however, I do know that eventually army build shenanigans will come back to haunt you, I still don't think the poor old Tyranid player (Joe Westfield) my Eldar tabled without losing a model would give me a sip of water if I was dying of thirst.

What say you?

4 minimum sized Troop choices with zero upgrades.

To be honest there's not very many tau infantry upgrades to begin with. Whereas other armies can include heavy weapons upgrades to increase a troops capabilities, fire warriors have no other options.

The only possible upgrades you can get can only be given to one fire warrior in the squad which first has to be upgraded to the rank of Shas'ui, which already doubles his cost. Only than he can be given the following upgrades:

-Bonding Knive - his squad can regroup at less than 50% numbers
-hard-wired blacksun filter - allows the single team leader only (not the rest of his squad as well) to double his sight distance at night
-Drone controller - can take two drones
- Multi-tracker - there's no separate definition for the infantry upgrades, so going off the definition for the battle-suits, it allows the Shas'ui to fire two weapons at once. Considering he can't carry two weapons at once.........
-- Hard-wired target lock - allows that singles model to engage a separate target than his unit
- Markerlight

A squad of ten with a decent amount of upgrades will cost approx. ~150.

In 4th ed. I used to roll with three 12 man squads to decent effect. All with Shas'ui and bonding knives for extra ld. and rallying ability. I would mix it up and sometimes give them networked marker drones or tarket lock and markerlights for some variety. I agree and think it is unacceptable on GW's part that Necron warriors and Firewarrior get zero upgrade ability for regular troopers....For Shame. Hopefully when they finaly update these books and bring them up to snuff they'll fix these problems like why a firewarrior can't lug around a burst cannon for example.

I have only brought out my Tau for one game of 5th so far so i don't think I can really say how firewarriors fare now. Although I still think the idea of a mech Tau list could be decent. And no, not the reserve rule abusing "ninja-tau" list!

Hey, Marines only have 2 troop options and I consider it to be one of the better all round balanced books. But of course, even though they've been more restricted in the latest dex than dex's before, they still have a ton of options and can fill alot of roles.

I believe that as well. Every new book we will see will have special characters or HQ choices that change options and "these units count as a _______ choice" rules. Seems to be the latest trend for late 4th and all 5th so far. Should be interesting. However, I don't like how for marines all changes were based on the fact that you HAD to take the specific special character in name or proxy.

I would like to say that I do agree that having less firewarriors is a slight nod towards cheesy, but I would like to clarify however that this list was origionally made for 2,000 points where it includes 6 squads of firewarriors. I needed to cut down on things when I converted the list and was afraid that cutting out all the markerlights for firewarriors would suck some of the point of the army out. As for the upgrades, I will admit that a team leader would add improved leadership and they would get bonding knifes for free. However adding something like markerlights is something I cut back on from playing the firewarriors and not liking the results. Adding a ballistic skill 3 markerlight to the squad meant that if I wanted to use the markerlights I would have to keep the squad in one place. I enjoy playing firewarriors with the option of mobility and the markerlights seemed to take that option away from me. As for the team leaders, they got cut down in order to afford more firewarriors rather than having less upgraded firewarriors.

Also, in terms of applying my list to that chart that was posted, I'm looking at 24 points.

I lose 3 for Hqs (maxed and greater than 20%)
I lose 3 for troops (less than 20%)

For 2,000 point tournament lists my troop issue can be reduced to -2 and if I ditch the crisis commander I can get the HQ down to -2 giving my army a pretty fair 26/30 score.

Just have to point this out because I'm a damn rules lawyer. Codex: Marines don't change sternguard into a troops choice, they just make them scoring.

I just posted it cuz everytime I see someone say that, I get my hopes up that I read it wrong the last ten times. =/

Not to be mean but lets call a spade a spade. The Tau List at 1750 actually scores 19/30:
-5 for HQ as the scores are cumulutaive;
-3 for Troops as you spend less then 20% on them;
-3 for Duplication as you have 4 squads of Fire Warrios that share identical equipment.