"Power Gaming" - why bother???

i dont have the time or desire to point them out.

I don't mean offence or to worry you but this really rubs me the wrong way when people say this, because it's a mirrored image of a flaw in myself. I do it a lot and I know the exact reason why: I actually don't have anything to counter it with or I'm unsure of my arguments.

I don't judge and expect fair treatment for everyone, so please, rip apart my posts and tell me how wrong I am


slightly off-topic:

First off, I'd like to know who's using these 'internet lists' so I can play against them and see what all the fuss is about.

I originally wrote a Necron list very similar to this one:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/11/necrons-in-5th.html

I playtested that one and really liked how it worked out, so I started to use it. I played against the blue/silver space marine army (three drops, thunderfire cannon, LRC...) at the Den. Then I modified it to include a Destroyer Lord (the current iteration seen in the Army Lists board).

blatantly off-topic: I don't understand the fuss either. What if you miraculously came up with a list that is very similar (or indeed identical to) an "internet" list? So what you're going to use is disallowed because someone else came up with the other somewhere else. Oh crap, I use Immortals as part of my Necrons and some dude in Alabama did. Well crap, I guess it's an internet list

if min/maxing is your thing then go ahead and do it but let people know that you enjoy games with a more "compettive" flair. Like Robyn said, it can be fun once in awhile to bring the cheese but for the love of god don't do it to a 13 year old playing his second game of 5th edition , save it for someone else you know that swings the same way

This I agree with as much as I disagree with it. I'll touch on it later as I've re-written my response to this about ten times over and I can't make up my mind on what I do think about how it would apply to other people.

However, as a newb, I expect people to bring nothing but their A-game and their best lists. If my hand is held with shoddy tactics or bad lists it's only going to slow or prevent altogether any chance I have at getting better. I expect to lose, a lot. But ya know what? I'm gonna get better and learn some new stuff; that's where the fun really lies

And Alex, you really have to take it back a notch.

My sincere apologies. I don't mean to be harmfully contentious, but that's usually how I come off; especially on the internet. But I promise I'm perfect in every other way!

I don't know if this post meets the requirement for "taking it back" but I will try to clear up some things I said.

a big basis of our relationship is to help new players and be friendly. I definitely wont tolerate any of the "play however you want and if the newbs cant take it, they leave" attitude.

I don't mean it quite so cold despite it being phrased that way. The goal of that philosophy is to maximize on fun and enjoyment based on player interaction, NOT the contents of the game. I don't know about many people here but I don't enjoy playing against a person who is sensitive to something as inevitable as a loss, especially when they're new. It screams "bad logic" to me.

By all means, be friendly - PLEASE be friendly. I like being with friendly people who can tolerate my rather brazen attitudes at times. What I'm saying is that don't hold hands for people who suffer from massively inflated egos. If they can't take a loss then I don't understand why you'd want them in the league - I don't say alienate all new players, just the ones that are going to have issues with a harmless loss: they are going to ruin other people's fun because of, well, their attitude.

You wouldn't tolerate someone who was openly racist or physically violent for the same reasons: they cause stress and remove the ultimate purpose of this hobby, to have fun commandeering small plastic men.

If someone can't handle a loss then, I don't really see how they can ultimately handle a loss later on when it could become a greater problem. Things don't really change on that front; a person's ego doesn't deflate when they gain experience (usually quite the opposite).

We should be striving to make sure everyone is having a good time. Part of that relationship with the Den means kids and their parent probably coming on here from time to time.

I agree completely. What I tried to say is that no one has fun when someone pulls a hissy fit because they lost... that's crazy to want to hold their hand and keep them close, they're just going to drag everyone down.

(as a side note, I didn't know anyone that young was even interested in 40K. It's quite dark for that age, and I've only seen a child in the den once)

There is no way to turn off the censor from your end

OK, just thought I'd ask. Thanks!

edit: Wow, I spent nearly an hour writing this post. Sleep time! =/

I take a little bit of offense to the concept that people believe I picked farsight because he is a cheese list.

People think Farsight is cheesy?! That's ridiculous... he himself isn't too bad (way overpriced) but the army he commands is a big bag of fail.

I gotta get to work, but I just laughed and had to respond when I saw this:

[quote="HolyCause"]

People think Farsight is cheesy?! That's ridiculous... he himself isn't too bad (way overpriced) but the army he commands is a big bag of fail.

Tyson's army is one of the most effective I've ever faced, due partly to the farsight squad, and partly to Tyson's impeccably strategic mind. He may not have the best win/loss record, but I think that's a testament to A: Luck and B: The skill of his average opponent (Myself not included, as I don't think I've ever beaten his tau at the strategic level)
So don't be surprised if he asks you to put your money where your mouth is on that one.

I think I'm going to go out on a limb here and speak my mind. Oh noes.

First off, I've got to say the question everyone has been curious about (At least in my household), who are we talking about. I ask this only because as far as I can tell, its some nebulous 'new guys' who may or may not exist.

We have no nob bikers, no dual lash (That I've seen). I've gone weekly to wednsday night games for months now, short when I was sick or incredibly tired, and I've yet to see a psyker battle squad/pinning combo, or people running vendetta heavy lists. If we are talking about powergaming and internet lists in the truest sense, then the only things I can think that count in that regard are Timbo's Eldar (Which he modified and which were fair and balanced imho.) and possibly Joe's new super daemon (That thing is a monstrosity! It scares me!)

Jokes aside, it doesn't happen. Jim has played at least a half dozen lists since the league started, tyson's farsight, if you ask the internet, is an abomination that sucks. Randy's Nids, while fluffy and awesome, are far from powercreeping. Hell, even my marines, which have a very good track record so far, are basically a compilation of "What is cool looking and fun on Dawn of War?"

And that brings me to my next thought. Who isn't having fun? And why? To my knowledge I haven't beaten anyone and had them have any complaints about my list, nor have I had significant complaints about the lists of anyone who has beaten or tied me. Tyson usually plays close, interesting games that have everyone leaving the table smiling, and I know I've rarely seen a person walk out of the den with a frown unless they just spent the night getting stomped by bad luck.

I guess this bothers me because, judging by the thread, there are people who are upset with the direction the league is headed, but I can't put much of a face to any of them, or really bring up any examples of what we could do to change this.

And change is something I don't think anyone would disagree with. If people are getting driven away because they aren't having fun, then yeah, civil, sane discussion is the best way to handle it, but at the same time, vague generalizations about 'people' don't seem to help much, because I can't tell if the concerns are about people I've met, or some mysterious twin-lash monster who only plays on saturdays at 3:33 *Dun dun*

Not to say we should call people out, but if you have a problem with someone's list, talk to them! I played Jim's mech list for the first time this week, one look at it and I knew it was a brutally efficient list. After he slaughtered me with it I looked at him and said, 'Look, that list is a bit cheezy.'

Before I finish, I have one thing I wanted to address. Paz, I don't want you to feel I'm calling you out, just commenting on what you said above. I do get that the hobby is about painting and modeling for a lot of people, and its wonderful playing against a fully painted army. That said, not a lot of people have your talent at it. Both of my roommates are illiterate when it comes to painting and modeling, and with my shaky hands it'll take me upwards of an hour to finish a single marine to even basic three color table ready.

Basically, a lot of people don't have the time, skill, or drive to work at it. For many gamers, its a wargame first, a hobby second. Whether thats good or bad is anyones guess, and you're entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. Personally I'd love to see your daemons show up more since they're so pwetty. =/ (Also, see below for my recommendation to HELP with getting people painted, I don't just complain!)

((Edit: Just because I want my two cents, Paz, most of the people who are defending powergaming are probably doing so because if they're anything like me, they feel that the comments are at least partially directed towards their playing style, a style which seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm sitting, even if it looks terrible from a different angle.))

Anyways, I should probably tidy up my rant, but as always with me, I don't want to complain without adding, so here it is:

Limited games per week - Obviously this is being discussed on a seperate thread. But limited games per week is a near must. The top players on the league right now are Tyson, followed by Joe, Jim, Zach, myself and a bunch of names I don't recognize. Four of the top five are new players, and all of the top five play consistantly (Usually two games a week.) Most people can't keep up, so its not a test of skill so much as endurance. =/

A sportsmanship score - This is a question more than a point, but why don't we have a sportsmanship score? Keep away hurt feelings maybe. If thats the case, maybe a hidden score that is added to the final strategic total in the last week or after the league, to give an extra boost to players who play decent lists?

Painting score - My biggest suggestion? Make it variable. I don't know if its more work for robin (If it is I'm sorry!) but a variable: It's painted, its kinda painted, its a little painted. Score might be helpful. Everytime I look at my marines I cry a little inside, because I know that, short of wanting them to look awesome, I have to finish every model before it will have an effect on my standings. (Note: I do want them to look awesome, but so much work!)

Thats all thats coming to mind at the moment. I hope I haven't offended anyone, just trying to help since I really do enjoy playing with tiny plastic/pewter figs with you guys.

Sorry, to clarify, I basically meant more of a, "If you have a problem with the way someone's list is, tell them." Than 'point fingers' sort of thing.

Thats a good checklist robyn. good work. The old tournament pack from gw had a scoring breakdown for army composition, which that checklist seems to resemble. Do you happen to have that score card from your past days?

So don't be surprised if he asks you to put your money where your mouth is on that one.

IMHO, Tau are the strongest army in 40K currently and Necrons are the weakest, but it would be very interesting to play that list regardless.

I think I could make a quick mockery out of Farsight's group. They're not STR6 so my Scarabs would have fun keeping them occupied all day - Farsight and his posse could maybe kill 2-3 bases per phase. That's a huge chunk of points tied up if the full retinue is used.

I just don't like how Farsight limits the Tau army so much. The removal of Kroot really does suck, and anti-vehicle is kinda nerfed.

I need to say something about the painting:
As Adam has allready stated, I haven't the skill required to do even a half-assed job, and I don't think my (VERY) poorly painted minis will be any nicer to look at than the gray/primed stuff I have now, so I'm choosing to wait until someone else *Cough*Adam*Cough* has the time to paint them WELL for me, even though I know that'll be after he's done his own, and likely fairly far down the road.

I make it a point to bring fully assembled models with WYSIWYG wargear to the table(the only exception being one vendetta which I haven't had a chance to acquire lascannons for yet), b/c I am NOT inept at the construction of the models(in fact I rather enjoy that aspect now that I've got the hang of it), just the painting portion of this hobby. *L* Anybody wanna trade? I'll assemble yours if you paint mine.

Also, I'd appreciate it if people(In General, No Finger Pointing!) would give those of us who aren't painted a bit of a break. I don't ridicule people for not being as strategically minded as I like to think I am, so please don't look down on me for not being as artistic as you guys. We all enjoy this Hobby/game, else we wouldn't be doing it, and a lot of us enjoy different parts of it more than others.

I just wish I didn't feel like people are looking down on me b/c the portion I'm good at is supposedly less important/cool than the portion they're good at.

Robyn, I don't think he's trying to start a pissing contest here, he's just saying what everyone who's seen Tyson's lists on the internet says. It's only those of us who have the (mis?)fortune of actually seeing it in action that realize it's a lot better list than most think.

Alex - He is right though, Farsights squad can mow through marines, I don't think scarabs would last very long (Even if he doesn't shoot them to death), and he has a lot of fusion/plasma/missile pods, as well as broadsides with twin-linked railguns for anti-tank.

40k is 50% hobby, 50% tactics and game-play. you are definitely right i for one should get off my arse and paint

This actually turned out to be very interesting. Im glad you decided to reopen it Robyn, the flaming seems to have been avoided.

The thing that i love more than anything in the hobby is the tournament. I dont mean the 1000 point one down at the den, i mean the big ones, where you get players from a larger demographic. It was tournaments that really inspired me to become proficient in all aspects of the hobby. Initially i was a painting/modeling guy, but i worked at becoming a well rounded gamer. You cannot win a tournament without a strong list, good sportsmanship, good tactics and nice painting. If everyone was driven to take best overall in tournament play, then we all would be on the same page.

Of course this is not of interest to most people, but its something of a dream that i have always had for the league. For some reason it seems like the most enjoyable people to play (IMO) have almost always been the tournament players. When a bunch of us were doing the curcuit there was allot of camradarie. We all played to win, but tailored our lists, tactics, attitudes and hobby skills to achieve the best results we could in tournie play. This pursuit provided all the guidelines we needed.

I really wish that i had the time/moeny to pack all you heathens into the titty wagon, and hit the tournament curcuit again. Those are some of my fondest memories, and what i believe contributed greatly to such a solid foundation for the hunters.

Ultimately i know im wasting my breath here, and that this has little to do with current issues. Just wanted to reminisce a bit.

Alright, couple of thoughts.

Jemal= I totally understand what you mean about painting. It is scary to get started, when you don't have any experience in painting. I'm a fine arts major, and I still get freaked out with new techniques. But really, no one gets good, no one becomes a good painter, without trying first. Everyone has to, the great painters out there are not born with the ability, they practice. So I can understand not being excited about painting, but that's how you will always be if you never try. Tournaments are a fun excursion every year or two, and you will be derided if you don't slap some paint on those mothers.

Tyson= I love Farsight. Seriously, one of the coolest characters out there. but lets face it, if you want a fluffy army, you are only playing half the story. A= lots of crisis suites, great! lots of drones? not so much. Remember, these guys are lacking in tech! masses of floating shield drones, not what he is about.
B= fire warriors! remember, O'shovah is leading a WARRIOR caste rebellion, so 50% (or more) of those mothers should be fire warriors. Lastly, Broadsides. they are 0-1! If you are going fluffy, I would not include any of the 0-1 units, because the enclaves don't have many, if any!. So yes, I think your list is not as fluffy as it could be. you have taken the O'shovah list, and tried to build as powerful a list out of your restrictions as possible. I have not played you, so I can't call you a power-gamer in any sense of the term, but I can say, I wouldn't be psyched to play against you, nor would I rank you with the fluffy army group, in all honesty.

Keep it real bro's, and it'll all be cool.

Lex -
I don't think you're wasting your breath at all, what you said makes perfect sense, and were that option available to me, I'd likely be more interested in getting my guys painted (Though I'd still have the problem of artistic suckage). I would love to be able to take a fully painted army to a tournament and just have a great day or two playing against people from other areas, who probably have different meta-experiences to shape how they play.

Also, on a side note, If this had been a 'normal' internet forum, I think you would've done the right thing in closing the thread originally, The thing that's likely kept this conversation more civil than a similar conversation on another forum might have been is that at the end of the day, we have to face each other IRL and be held accountable for what we say. The greater internet dickwad theory doesn't apply as much b/c there's a much greater chance that if you insult someone, there are consequences.

Paz -
The problem is that I USED to be a modeller, back when I was a teen, and I wasn't any good at painting back then either. I'm not avoiding i b/c I think I won't be good, I'm avoiding it b/c I HAVE tried in the past, and got discouraged by not being any good. That's why I left modelling over a decade ago. (I used to have quite the collection of cars, tanks, and battleships, all poorly painted).

On that note though, Is there a night when people get together to paint at some central location, or would that be a pipe dream? I'm thinking maybe if I were around people who knew what they were doing I could motivate myself to learn from them, though I'm not expecting any miracles.

EDIT: ALso, to defend Tyson a little, I believe he DOES use 6 squads of Fire warriors, he just has a tendency to reserve them b/c they're such easy kill points.

Jemal wrote:
On that note though, Is there a night when people get together to paint at some central location, or would that be a pipe dream? I'm thinking maybe if I were around people who knew what they were doing I could motivate myself to learn from them, though I'm not expecting any miracles.

There have been a couple "Paint Days" sunday at twelve that I've been too, I'm not sure if it's a weekly thing. The last two times I was there it was pretty slow, with only 3 (including me) people there.

If i diddnt work weekends i would host a paint day at the den. I used to have them in my basement, and it was good times. I dont have the space anymore though.

I know its a bit of a hijack, but yea, i used to be a horrible painter. You should see some of my first models, they look like ronald mcdonald took a big rainbow =I=censor=I= on them! If you really have the desire to become a better painter the internet is your friend. I learned everything i know from a site called bolter and chainsword. It used to have several golden demon painters contributing on a regular basis. So rainbow =I=censor=I= + allot of hard work and research = winning best painted in tournaments all over western canada (sorry dont mean to toot my own horn). Since then i have certainly see the emergence of people who are probably beyond my own skills.. Paz, Ryan, and Robyn really stepped his game up (sorry if i missed any of the other artistic genuises out there).

Even if you dont have the time to learn how to be a master painter, there are a few methods out there that allow for a really fantastic paint job with very minimal work. In preparation for an upcoming tournament i sat down with my cousin and helped him put together a method for dipping his orcs. If done properly, with the right color pallet, the results are almost magical. In about a month he painted an entire 1700 point orc list, that was almost all infantry. This was just before the new codex was released, but it was still allot of orcs. They looked pretty good too.

If anyone wants ideas on how to paint their armies in a fast and easy way feel free to give me a shout. This is the kind of thing i always have time to help with.

You said Tau are strongest and necrons are weakest, but you'd wipe his list out with scarabs?

-_- I didn't say anything like that, I said that Scarabs could very quickly make those 600 some odd points of Farsight and his posse useless for 2-3 rounds.

How are twin linked rail guns with no cover saves not effective against tanks..?

I said kind of, not entirely, nor did I say anything along the lines of "railguns are not good at killing vehicles." I would murder small children to get Gauss Rails... okay, maybe not, but it'd still be pretty sweet

your coming off not only in a bully'ish way

Hmm, if anyone agrees with this bring it up at the Den tomorrow, because me flinging the internet poo around here isn't going to help it. Needless to say I'm troubled by this statement from both ends: the sayer and the applicant.

[quote="HolyCause"]

Hmm, if anyone agrees with this bring it up at the Den tomorrow, because me flinging the internet poo around here isn't going to help it. Needless to say I'm troubled by this statement from both ends: the sayer and the applicant.

I could be reading this totally wrong, but it seems like you are almost daring people to confront in person. I have not read all the posts, but from what i have seen your tone and wording seem to be pretty "bullyish" as suggested. Telling people to confront you in public does little to diminish this impression.

And why are you flinging internet poo? Using this term to sum up your activities seems to only confirm the notion that you feel you are in some kind of conflict. I mean to me when i think about someone flinging poo around, it makes me think that they are trying to upset the people that are within throwing distance. Poo flinging is only considered entertainment when monkeys do it. Even then only other monkies find it funny... everyone else still comes off feeling offened

Note: i inserted a smiley face to let you know that this post was just in good fun, and that i was not actually comparing you to one of the lesser primates.

IIRC over half of meaningful human interaction is done in person, hence why I would suggest I clear up my behaviour in person where it would appear more honestly and less "cop-outishly", if that makes sense.

it seems like you are almost daring people to confront in person

I don't mean to dare them into contention, just... request that they speak to me in person so I can explain myself fully.

The internet poo thing was a self-reflection in jest. My intentions are never to troll, I am irritated greatly by such people and don't wish to do it myself.

I think I only get away with my personality with others is because they're used to it and know underlying causes and thus make room for it...

Entering newscast mode. Details at 6 tomorrow! Newcast mode off.

When people start talking power gamer and stuff it is sometimes a good chance to take a breath and think about stuff. If someone makes a post like Mike did, and someone takes offence, you're probably a power gamer. I'm just saying from experience over on the Fantasy side of things that once the league ballooned up like 40k has power gaming became a big problem. The good news is that everything we tried didn't work at all. We introduced a format similar to what Robyn suggested and tried to put in incentives to follow those guidelines. People started to complain because some armies have zero chance of passing any formulaic comp system due to their design. And the chief culprits realized that with everyone playing more game friendly lists they culd take the hit on league points and still hammer their opponents by using even stronger lists.

Back when Brooklyn's was open (That's my definition of a league veteran. Someone who used to go next door to the Den and get wasted after a game of Warhammer. +1 if you took your shirt off!) we sort of had the same go around many times over about what we could do to hamper power gaming. Then we'd have the debate on what was power gaming. Then we'd have a yelling match over who was a power gamer, and how much elves suck etc. Then get wasted. In one of our more lucid sessions of boozing we sort of defined, for our group, what power gaming was.

Anyone trying to win the game before the battle even started was a Power Builder.

Anyone trying to win the game during the battle by using rules they new were stupid to win was a Power Gamer.

Both were bad, and anyone who combined both those traits was sort of given the scornful glance of disdain. GW games aren't perfect and so many of their errata's etc. are just plain ignorant. With army books often being one or two editions behind their core ruleset there are other more innocent problems as well. Some people may be unaware that their own personal brand of fun comes at the expense of others, and others still might not care. Some guys just figure "why wouldn't I bring the best possible army I can make to a game?" and expect their opponent to do the same. We found in fantasy that this turned into a rock-paper-scissors sort of affair that was no fun for anyone long or short term. It also scared away the people who couldn't meta game by buying more than 2000ish points of army or those who simply weren't interested in that style of play.

For all the wounded ego and debate regarding what is good play and what isn't it's nice to get a discussion going about this stuff. A big league is great because you get a wide variety of armies, paint jobs, style of play and all that. Unfortunately you get a large number of personalities as well. Before the 40k league fragments into smaller little groups who don't bother with each other due to frustration with army building etc. it's good to hear everyone's viewpoint.

I write this as a very, very wise man. I have killed many a beer debating this subject and I am pretty sure I always won. that's the way I tell the story anyway.

ScottRadom wrote:
Anyone trying to win the game before the battle even started was a Power Builder.
.......
Both were bad....

How far does this definition go? So far I've been refining my list a little bit (keeping it generally the same) after each loss; mainly because I'm still new and learning how the Tau army works, and what tactics can be effective with it. As well, once I know I have a game coming up, I'll take some time to go over the codex and think about tactics, new formations etc. I'll also think about what I may expect from my opponent (if I know anything about them), consider tactics they used the last time I played them, and consider possible counter-techniques.

Or is that definition more on the intent? When I evaluate past battles, why I lost them, consider deployment strategies etc I don't do them purely driven to win. I do it because I enjoy strategy and planning; and this part is very enjoyable to me even if my plans end up biting the dust and I get wiped off the board.

I just wanted to ask because you stated it in a very black and white fashion; and I wanted to understand your meaning better.

I do believe (Please note the qualifier) that if you have a problem with someone - their list, their sportsmanship, their rules interpretations, etc... you should tell them. to their face. when it comes up. Not post about it on the internet later, or complain to your friends after the person has left earshot.

If you think people are going to take offence, then either you need to learn to criticize more constructively, or you need to give people a little more credit. We're (mostly) adults, and even the younger ones I've had the chance to interact with seemed at least as mature as the average person I meet. I'm sure they(we?) can take some criticism, so long as you're not phrasing it as "Ur list is gai and so r u!". Keep it constructive and civil, and I don't see how that hurts.

And on the off chance that the 'offender' IS the kind of person who blows up because you're being truthful and politely critical, then at least you tried to be straightforward and civil, and you can then know for future reference what kind of person they really are, and be righteous in your avoidance of them.

For example: The only person I've faced recently who's said there's anything wrong with either my army or my playstyle was Adam, But I don't hold that against him. In fact, I welcome it. How are we to grow as gamers and people if we don't get input from our peers? This kind of discussion is great, but it doesn't lead to growth like direct conversation does.
(Note: If someone else has expressed a problem with my army after a game, then you did it too subtly b/c I didn't catch it.)

To requote something Paz said earlier..

don't call people out unless you are ready to do it in person... Take a breath, and if you do have a big problem with someone's post, face-to-face avoids flame wars and missunderstandings.

Don't call people out unless you are ready to do it in person. If you have a problem with someone, talk to them face to face.
He was talking about something else, but it's essentially the same thing, and it's exactly what I'm saying.

*DISCLAIMER: the phrase 'You' in this post doesn't pertain to any person in particular. Please do not take it as meaing YOU in particular.