2000 Iron Hands army

just a bullshit list i was playing around with to try out some new wargear:

2000 Pts - Codex: Space Marines Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1999
Chapter Tactics: Iron Hands

Chapter Master Badass, 280 pts = + Artificer Armour 20 + The Shield Eternal 50 + The Burning Blade 55 + Bike 20 + 5 Melta Bombs

Tactical Squad, 200 pts = + Grav-gun 15 + Plasma Cannon 15, (Tactical Sergeant + Grav-pistol 15 + Lightning Claw 15)
Tactical Squad, 200 pts = + Grav-gun 15 + Plasma Cannon 15, (Tactical Sergeant + Grav-pistol 15 + Lightning Claw 15)
Tactical Squad, 200 pts = + Grav-gun 15 + Plasma Cannon 15, (Tactical Sergeant + Grav-pistol 15 + Lightning Claw 15)

3 Bike Squad, 108 pts = + Grav-gun x2 30 (Biker Sergeant + Grav-pistol 15 + Melta Bomb 5)
3 Bike Squad, 108 pts = + Grav-gun x2 30 (Biker Sergeant + Grav-pistol 15 + Melta Bomb 5)
3 Bike Squad, 108 pts = + Grav-gun x2 30 (Biker Sergeant + Grav-pistol 15 + Melta Bomb 5)

Devastator Squad, 220 pts = + Lascannon x4 80
3 Centurion Devastator Squad, 280 pts = + Missile Launcher x3 30 + Grav-cannon with Grav-amp x3 60
3 Centurion Devastator Squad, 280 pts = + Missile Launcher x3 30 + Grav-cannon with Grav-amp x3 60

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 0 (0 - 3)
Troops: 3 (2 - 6)
Fast: 3 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 3 (0 - 3)
Fort: 0 (0 - 1)

dan and i playtested this against his Tooncon list. halfways into my shooting in the bottom of turn 3 we called it because i was wiping him out too fast.  power armour lists will not like grav weapons. terminator armor will hate grav weapons. dirty tshirt armies wont care about grav weapons.  that about sums up what we learned.  2 grav-guns shooting per turn, if they dont roll a bunch of misses, chew through half a termi squad per turn, guaranteed.  3 grav cannons eat whole squads per turn.  they didnt get a chance to try and eat some power armour, but i think even in cover, these would have eaten over half a unit per turn after cover saves.

First thing i can think of here is that you could probably save 90 points in grav pistols and get libby or something, or put your HQ on a bike.

plasma pistols are bad, so are grav pistols, for the very same reasons.

also, i'm not sold about ML/Grav cannon combination for the Centurions just seems like the ML isn't adding much to the party and a hurricane bolter shares the same range. so your concentrating fire and saving some points in the process.

Just a quick read through of your list, the points are off. Your tactical squads should be 200pts and your Centurions should be 280pts with the upgrades you've listed.

hmm, your right, some of those numbers are off. i also altered it a bit before playing dan too. the master was on a bike. i'll edit the post to fix the blurbs

Rhaevyn wrote:First thing i can think of here is that you could probably save 90 points in grav pistols and get libby or something, or put your HQ on a bike.

plasma pistols are bad, so are grav pistols, for the very same reasons.

also, i'm not sold about ML/Grav cannon combination for the Centurions just seems like the ML isn't adding much to the party and a hurricane bolter shares the same range. so your concentrating fire and saving some points in the process.

mostly, it was just a list to piss around with all the new grav weapons and see how they all performed. a benchmarking list, if you will.  quite a few of the wargear options were choices made just to suppliment the grav weapon choices to make the list total 2000pts, and not something i'd normally even bother taking.

after testing all 3 main types, i'd disagree on the pistol one. if you've got a bike squad with grav guns, adding a pistol to the sgt for that 7th shot every turn is useful.  tactical squads, ehhh, it's more a point filler purchase.  but i also tend to prefer to leave my sgt's nekkid and not take the vet upgrade either so i have more points for elsewhere in my lists, so someone that likes upgraded sgts might find them pretty handy since you still get a 12" AP2 pistol, but never have to worry about it blowing up in your face.

the missiles on the devs...yea, they seem like an after thought, or like over kill to start with then you focus on infantry. when i was about to grab dice to roll them on top of the grav shots on dan's wolf guard he kept looking at me like "why bother? theyre already gonna die".  I would suggest them in case your going against mechanized lists.  Grav weapons kinda suck vs tanks, and they cant affect buildings at all.  if you target a vehicle, you roll to hit as normal, then roll a D6 to see if you cause an immobilized result & remove a hull point on a 6. 1-5 you did nothing.  they can re-roll that thanks to the amp, but still not very good odds against vehicles.  so the missiles are there as backup.  they also can choose krak or frag, so if you do fight someone allied with, say, guard or orks or whatever, you can frag shot them to take out more since your grav cannon wont wound as well on them as on terminators.

making test rolls shooting a squad of 3 grav cannons against plague marines, you seem to average about 12 successful wounds, and after FNP rolls, the plaguers lose an avg of ~8 wounds per shooting phase, if they're not in cover.

2x MotF w/ conversion beaners
2x riflemen
2x 10 man tact squads in rhinos
2 x 5 man squads in las backs
2 x storm talons
3x thunderfires
2x aegis lines w/ icarus lascannon

Shave points take additional techmarines and attach to tact squads

Grav weapons kinda suck vs tanks, and they cant affect buildings at all. if you target a vehicle, you roll to hit as normal, then roll a D6 to see if you cause an immobilized result & remove a hull point on a 6. 1-5 you did nothing. they can re-roll that thanks to the amp, but still not very good odds against vehicles.

I think you haven't tested it enough vs vehicles. 3 man cent squad vs land raider - > 15 shots, 10 hits, glances on 6's, + grav amp re-rolls = win. If Tesla has taught us anything, twin-linking guns that do good stuff on 6's is money.

you probably wont kill a LR in one turn, but it will be short at least a couple Hull points and immobilized in one round of shooting for sure

It is worth noting that multiple immobilized results cause additional hull point loss. I learned that the hard way yesterday when two pens on my Ironclad both resulted in Immobilized and wrecked it. Had it survived that round of combat, it was totally going to siege drill that Tervigon to death next turn.

Planes wrote:It is worth noting that multiple immobilized results cause additional hull point loss.  I learned that the hard way yesterday when two pens on my Ironclad both resulted in Immobilized and wrecked it.  Had it survived that round of combat, it was totally going to siege drill that Tervigon to death next turn.

This for each 6 after the first it is 2 hull points. Adds up quick.

Rhaevyn wrote:
I think you haven't tested it enough vs vehicles.  3 man cent squad vs  land raider - >  15 shots, 10 hits,   glances on 6's, + grav amp re-rolls = win.    If Tesla has taught us anything,  twin-linking guns that do good stuff on 6's is money.

you probably wont kill a LR in one turn, but it will be short at least a couple Hull points and immobilized  in one round of shooting for sure

oh dont get me wrong; the grav cannon with grav amp will have no problems with vehicles. i meant grav weapons in general, specifically the gun, pistol and combi grav. these wont get the reroll, so they wont be as effective as the cannon will be.  but i think most people are getting used to betting on 6s after dealing with flyers and shooting with units that dont have skyfire. 

and tom's right, one good round of shooting from a single grav-gun vs a drop pod means it's gone in one round of shooting from that gun alone.  and land raiders will poof against the grav weapon too. first hit does an auto-immobilize result AND -1 HP. then you have the next 6 that will remove 2 HP. 2 successful hits on anything with a rhino chassis and its gone. 3 for raiders.

Actually it might appear that you still only lose one. In the brb FAQ there is a question similar that states you only lose the HP when the immobilized result was from a pen. Since grav weapons don't inflict a pen you only lose one. Still though

I have to say, that rather does sound like a conflict of intent, especially given the rather explicit wording on the chart.

I'm leaning heavily on the side that it's only 1 hull point.. for me though, the more irritating argument becomes the "do I get cover save for it".

There s a few goofy things in there they need to fix up.. but probably won't. Or maybe they will in the three days. You just never know with GW.

Here is the relevant FAQ from the BRB - couldn't quite manage the copy/paste on my phone last night.

Q: If a vehicle suffers the effects of a Crew Shaken, Crew
Stunned, Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result from the
Vehicle Damage table, does this automatically mean that it loses
a Hull Point? (p74)
A: No, unless it specifically suffers a Glancing or Penetrating
hit, or some other effect that specifies that a Hull Point is
lost.

the effect specifies that a hull point is lost, no?

It does.. it suffers an immobolized result and loses a hull point.
The argument is does it lose additional hull points for additional immobilization as per the vehicle damage table.

The first 6 wpyld be immbilizaed a hp. The second would be another immbilized (hp?) And a hp. So three? I dont think you do suffer the hp for extra grav weapon immobilizations. But.. its up for debate since they worded it weird.

so it loses a hull point, and then suffers an immobilization result which, on an already immobilized vehicle, takes off another hull point.

seems logical to me, i'm not really seeing where the discrepancy is.

only immobilized results have the specific wording that it loses extra hull points if it already immobilized.

i'm not even sure why that was a faq question. how many effects make a vehicle roll on the damage table and dont cause damage?