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Post  Matthew G on Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:54 pm

So, i haven't been able to play 6th very much but have had a ton of time to talk about the rules with my friends, and read what you all are saying about it.
Three things i have to say are killing the idea of the game to me.

1) Character challenges - i like this idea in theory, but the fact that this extends to the sergeants leading the squads really really erks me. I *strongly* believe that this rule should only be available to and used by independant characters only.

2) Hull Points - yes, i understand that in 5th vehicles were very strong, but now it us a heck of a lot more easy to kill a vehicle. Why even bother with penetrating hits when you can just glance a vehicles to death with a crap ton more reliability. Glancing hit spam kills out weigh the penetrating hits now....

3) Assaulting out of Vehicles - i want to think i understand why they did this, but now no matter how far you move a vehicles, shit, even if it doesn't move you cannot assault unless you are in an assault vehicle. Three turns before you can assault now if you want to use a transport.... Turn 1, move up. Turn 2, disembark (assuming the transport still exists (see my second point). Turn 3, *finally* be able to charge.... Like wtf....

I love 40k but this is going to be killer for me... Now to think of a list that uses no characters, vehicles, or assault troops...


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Re: rant

Post  System Commander on Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:41 pm

Im not a big fan of the challenges either. Ive only done one so far, and it was my raptor champion with lightening claws against an Imperial Commander with power fist.. Its a bizarre thing really...

The issues with the vehicles though Im not sure about. I think the same sort of strategy from 5th will stand for me.. either I take jsut a few vehicles I really need.. like a couple dreads.. or I max out as much as I can.. 3 heavies, lots of transports and some dreads... then hope I dont play necrons.. Smile

You only need to be obscured 25% now to get a cover save.. so it helps a bit.. and being able to move in the shooting phase gives you that extra bit of movement. Ill have to play a bit more.. but I still think they are way better then 4th edition. Rhinos were much more expensive and were deathtraps.. and killing a landraider with a glancing hit sucked so much... again especially if you were playing necrons.. Smile

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Re: rant

Post  Spamus Eatus on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 am

A- In theory challenges are good, but unfortunately it kind of gets "gamey" at times, when it would make more sense that your character would not accept a challenge out of tactical considerations or he feels the challenger is so below him not to bother. Also the idea of challenges implies a level of respect between forces, which seems odd when a hive tyrant accepts the challenge from an IG sergeant instead of simply stamping on all the squishy guys at once. Good idea, could use some more work in execution.

B- It's not so much that vehicles were powerful in 5th, rather, light armor and transports were powerful because they were cheap, you could take lots of them, and often could carry a decent amount of firepower. What was left behind was main battle tanks or gun carriers. As it stands now, light armor and transports are roughly as survivable as they were before. Imagine this scenario: A 6th ed rhino takes 2 glances and a pen and is wrecked (no 6 is rolled to 'splode it) In 5th, odds are good that that damage would reduce it to an armored box that is now incapable of doing anything the rest of the game, or just destroying it anyways. In the case of heavy tanks, where it is harder to get through the armor, glances are FAR less of a problem than they were before. You can now take a predator or a vindicator and expect it to do SOMETHING until it is wrecked or a lucky pen is rolled. This is were the dedicated anti tank guns start to show their purpose, in killing the heavy stuff. The penetrating table is also more forgiving in 6th as a shaken vehicle can at least snapfire instead of no shooting at all.

C- I'm not sure if you were around for 3rd edition, but assaulting out of vehicles is BAAAAAAAD. This is what happens: Marine army completely loaded in rhinos zooms up on turn 1 and smokes, zooms up again on turn 2, gets out and entire army charges you. I remember dark times of BA armies getting off a 30" charge if they got lucky. You might be talking about deploying and assaulting from a stationary vehicle however. Try doing this at home: get yourself a 15 passenger van, and fill it with 17 of your buddies. (APC's are not known for being spacious) Now drive around a field, come to a screeching halt, and now everyone has to get out of the van and organize themselves in roughly 5-10 seconds. Go. Okay, maybe you pulled it off. Now, give everyone airsoft/paintball guns, fill the field with smoke and charge at another group of guys who can see you coming. Let me know how it goes. This is why you can't assault out of a vehicle.

I've played about 5 games of 6th so far, and I really get the feeling that the writers wanted to tone down the hardcore competetiveness of the game. They certainly have succeeded in that regards, as 6th definately feels more narrative to me. It sounds like you need to play a few actual games and see how you feel then about the game.

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Re: rant

Post  dusktiger on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:26 am

........i thought in 5th edition if you disembarked from a rhino, you couldn't assault the same turn? so how's that any different than now? thats how i've been playing them for the last 5 years anyways. iirc, 5th didnt let you same-turn assault out of a vehicle unless it was an assault vehicle either.

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Re: rant

Post  Spamus Eatus on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:34 am

You could assault from a closed topped vehicle if it stayed stationary in the move phase. Now you can't do that either.

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Re: rant

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:32 pm

In 5th, you could "get where your going" with assault marines and stay safe until the turn you wanted to charge something. If the rhino didn't move before you disembarked, you could still charge. Which is a large difference, because you could deploy 2 inches, move 6 inches and assault 6 inches. So tactically you could count on those 14 inches of movement when you left your ride. Now you get out within 6 of a door, then assault 2d6. so theoretically you have an 18 inch threat range, but its more likely to be 12-13 inches... if you even survive to assault. because your enemy gets to shoot you in the face not Once, but Twice after you leave your Transport.

Right now most of my lists are ditching rhino's altogether. i'll add three more dudes to a squad instead. the unit is much more maneuverable, probably more survivable, and i dont offer up free Victory points with papermache rhinos that can be glanced to death by just about anything and can't even be used to contest objectives. The only downside being that deployment and turn one take so much longer.

Jump troops and bikes seem to be making a come back. The points you spend on the extra wargear making gains now that cheap rhino's are no longer as effective at getting your Zerkers or foot ASM where they are going.

I think we really just need the new book to drop on us soon System Commander. Berzerkers need an assault vehicle, and not everyone wants to use a landraider to deliver troops.

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