Disc of Tzeentch

Lore Weaver Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:12 pm

So, when you give a Herald or a Chaos Lord a Disc of Tzeentch, does that fine gentleman get +1 toughness due to his unit type becoming "Jetbike"?

Aegwymourn Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:49 pm

I'm not sure. When you give marine characters a bike or eldar characters a jetbike they get +1 toughness. Is it covered in either of the relevant wargear entries? Or is it a USR now that if a model acquires a bike that he has +1 T?

Rhaevyn Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:23 pm

i don't think so, all of the other relevant entries list the stat increases you get for taking that "mount".
the disc doesn't do that, it just changes the unit type to "jetbike" your not actually Riding a jetbike as a piece of wargear.

I'm not against it, as the Dex needs all the help it can get. but i think it needs a FAQ.

the internets agree with you btw Mark. every search i find seems to say that the armoured steed portion of the jetbike rule means that you get +1T

teh internets wrote:1: It is worded in exactly the same way as the Dark Angels, Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines books. It might be the same as Eldar but I haven't checked. To argue that he doesn't get the bonus, is to argue that none of the other 6th Edition books benefit either.

2: Armoured Steed is simply one of many rules attributed to being Unit Type: Jetbike. There is absolutely no reason that he would not benefit from +1 Toughness but still retain the special movement, Hammer of Wrath, Turbo Boost etc. It is all part of the same package and all rules within that package are equally valid.

So yes, he totally 100% gains +1 Toughness for riding a Disc of Tzeentch.

Aegwymourn Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:26 pm

\"Rhaevyn wrote:I'm not against it, as the Dex needs all the help it can get. but i think it needs a FAQ.

Chaos Marines = yes

Chaos demons = no

Razz

Rhaevyn Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:58 pm

Nah, if hes going to use an HQ slot on a Herald on a disc instead of another FMC, i can deal with the +1 T. otherwise they usually hide in a unit and are bound by its movement rules, Heralds of TZ are t3 natively i think too?... so meh.

Chaos Lord on a Disc with t5 and 3++ is actually fairly cool. He still doesn't have EW unless hes Black Legion. could be a beat stick, but your still limited to cultists, CSM or...tsons as troops.... so... yeah.
But i'm sure Mark is more thinking of the allied BL lv 4 sorc on a disc with the book of blinding idiocy. Much cheaper delivery method than the Daemon Prince.

Aegwymourn Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:21 pm

The jump from T3 to T4 is huge on those Heralds with the amount of Str 7 spam (especially for screamerstar where you are trying to snipe out that specific herald). I think they will be T4 now that Mark points it out, I just don't think they need it.

The big thing that stops chaos lords is still no access to a 2+ armor save and EW. You basically need those two to survive now.

System Commander Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:40 pm

Im with Mike here. I personally dont think he gets the +1 tgh. When you buy a bike.. you buy the wargear which gives you +1 tgh. The disc functions as a jetbike but doesnt give you a jetbike as wargear.

At least thats how i see it. I ll have to look a bit more into it.

Lore Weaver Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:26 pm

Tzeentch Warp Smith on a Disc

T5, 2+, 4++ (Aura + Mark) chimes in at 175 pts, has 2+1+1+2+1 S5 AP2 Power Axe attacks on the charge.
(2 profile, 1 pistol + axe, 2 mechatendrils, 1 disc, 1 for the charge)

Khornate one on a juggy would be fairly decent too.

System Commander Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:48 pm

No daemonic steeds for the apostle or warpsmith.

I was thinking about a khorne warpsmith on jugger awhile back and jesse pointed it out to me.

superdeuxlol Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:23 pm

That would mean Farseers that get on jetbikes do not get it either as their entry is listed in the same way. I find that hard to believe. I think the bonuses they list for the daemonic steeds are in addition to the normal and assumed changes you get from becoming a jetbike or cavalry.

Aegwymourn Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:51 pm

RAW I'm with Mark, the wording is exactly the same for space marine bikes (waited till i could check my codex to confirm my opinion).

Roland Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:01 pm

Forge your own narrative!!

Bikes and jetbikes grant +1T, the others list it since they are Cav. The Heralds do not "move like jetbikes", the unit type becomes jetbike.

In the case of the Eldar codex, it isn't listed, because it doesn't need to be. He gets it when taking the bike.

I don't think either codex is hurt by ruling the other way, but this is obv RAI and RAW. It reads a little weird bc GW, natch.

Rhaevyn Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:57 pm

I've changed my mind.

a Disc costs a character 30 points and a Jugger costs 35, a jump pack is only 15. a Bike is 20...
The argument could be made that the disc is fairly substantial and provides a measure of protection.
I thought the Disc was cheaper than that. Even if the intention was not for them to get the +1T, screw GW and their CSM dex.

Fill thy boots i say, Fill them!!

Lore Weaver Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:55 pm

System Commander wrote:No daemonic steeds for the apostle or warpsmith.

I was thinking about a khorne warpsmith on jugger awhile back and jesse pointed it out to me.

.... right you are. That friggen book is a bastion of broken hope. I've said many times to myself, "I know, I'll take X on my Y!" -- turns out it's not allowed.

Edit === I guess a Tzeentch Lord on a Disc is still cool, at least he's 3+ 3++ with 6 attacks on the charge, and can still power axe it up.

Aegwymourn Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:59 pm

Lore Weaver wrote:That friggen book is a bastion of broken hope. I've said many times to myself, "I know, I'll take X on my Y!" -- turns out it's not allowed.

Reminds me of when my friend was trying to play Thousand Sons back in 3.5. When the only thing that could take MoT were regular marines and terminators. Want anything else, nope no MoT for you! You could build a lot of powerful lists in 3.5 chaos just not Thousand Sons.

Lore Weaver Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:07 pm

"I like Tzeentch." -- Phil Kelly

Turns out he also likes Rammstein's stage show.
===
I might still get a Warpsmith. He can futz around in a Rhino and show everyone how much he sucks (and shoot a Burning Brand from the hatch!)

Rhaevyn Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:35 am

FW needs to be heroes and provide a useable Dreadclaw. they're going to do it, i know they will.
Even the one in Aeronautica would have worked had the thing come with Drop Pod Assault Rules attached.

dusktiger Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:37 am

they already did. switch to 30k and buy yourself a legion kharybdis assault claw.

System Commander Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:42 am

Thats not the same.. the assault claw is much more expensive.. both in points and in real dollars. Plus, that thing is used for planetary drops as well as ship boarding assaults, its a beast !

A dreadclaw, similar to a drop pod, is what were looking for here.

john549 Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:22 pm

zomg where r the rules for the karb assault claw??? my mind is imploding that i cant find them! Also Army Builder agrees that DoT gives +1 T

dusktiger Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:32 pm

there isnt any yet, far as i can tell. neither horus heresy book contains them. probably going to find them in the 3rd book, however.

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