Chaos Theory: Cult Troops... finding teh combo's

There's combinations to be had in the Chaos book.

I'm looking at having some scoring Troops choices that are beefy & good at the same time.

Tzeench:
Activated by taking a Tzeenchy Sorcerer. Take either the Sigil of Corruption for a 3++ save (60+25+15 == 100) Or save 10 points for a 4++ save (60+15+15 = 90)
If it floats your boat, you can spend 25-50 points for lvl 2 or 3, I think keeping it cheap is the way to go, with one Tzeench power, you have a 50% chance for Boon of Chaos.

A thousand sons unit of 4 AP3 bolter dudes with a 3+/4++ save and a lvl 1 sorcerer with a force weapon is 150pts. Add 4 dudes to get to the Tzeenchy 9 number, add in melta bombs for the sorcerer and you're at 247 points for a 9 man scoring unit with 3+/4++ saves. This unit is reasonably hard and AP3 shooting is super nice. The Sorcerer in the unit will give the unit a 5+ deny the witch, and some reasonable psychic powers (Doombolt, Boon, or that inferno thingy).

Boon is kinda neat. If you're playing an all-tzeench list, you can potentially have a lot of boon powers on the board. This'll start really pimping out your squad leaders or sorcerers. +1 Wound, +1 Armour Save... there's a lot of good on that list. Even if your dude turns into a spawn, he can go and assault some crappy foot unit by himself.

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Noise Marines:
Nothing wrong with having a Lord with +1 Initiative. Give that man a Sword or a Maul, keep him cheap, maybe give him a 4++ save for 25pts. Always... Always give melta bombs. Always.

Now for the Noise Marines... wow, there's cool things you can do. 5 man unit with a couple of Sonic Blasters in a Rhino with a Dirge Caster. That's 141 points. This unit is for driving around, shooting, pinning crappy LD guys, and denying overwatch in a 6" radius.

10 man unit with Sonic Weapons, and a blast master. 210 points. This unit hangs back a bit and shoots all game.
20 man unit with 2 blast masters and sonic weapons and a Feel no Pain banner comes to ~475 points. Expensive, but then you've got a lot of fearless dudes, definitely holding an objective *and* killing all the things, with FnP.
5-20 man Close Combat unit either on foot or in a Rhino. Initiative 5, free close combat weapon if you drop a bolter, 17pt fearless 3+ save 2 attacks, 3 on the charge dudes, definitely give the champ a power weapon and a doom siren (and melta bombs). The bigger the unit, the more points effective the FNP icon is. Again, a big unit of dudes. 20 dudes with the Icon and the champ with a siren, bombs, and a power weapon comes to 415.

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Plague Marines:

Typhus army is cool. If you're going to go this way, get Daemon allies and snag Epidemius and start teh tally. Mark some Oblits with Nurgle (mmm plasma cannon adds to the tally!), Mark some Havocs with Nurgle (T5 Autocannons, oh ya, S7 ignores armour saves seems kinda good). Get some plague bearers. Plague Marines have plague knives now. Throw a melta gun in your unit, may as well stuff them in Rhino's still. Plague Marines are teh business.

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Khornate:

I think this is the weakest spot in the codex. It's tough to get guys into combat now, and Rhino's don't do the job. Your opponent will have an opportunity to shoot you in the face. Even still, Chaos lord with Khorne mark and that swanky axe is okay, but I think the way to go here is Kharn. Take those big units of 'zerkers on foot and run up the field, I guess???

The problem is they all die to small arms fire just like regular marines (Nurgle being the exception) and are much more expensive. The Tzeentch guys can't even overwatch, so they are double vulnerable, to shooting and assault. A 4++ is meaningless most of the time unless your opponent's entire army is AP3 or better. It just means the small arms will go there first. I play vanilla marines and I'm not impressed by cult troops. Imagine the chuckles Space Wolves and Grey Knights are having.

I understand they could be trying to shift the power level of the codexes to less insane. If they are doing that then this book looks fine. The problem is there are two huge elephants in the room that just got books and will be around for 4-5 years in their current incarnation. Poor Chaos players will be the whipping boys for 4-5 years. I feel bad for Chaos players because that's not fair. They were arbitrarily chosen (no pun intended) to be on the cutting edge of suck. I guess this is GW's way of forcing players to use allies to be competitive. Dick move, but canny marketing. I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Thing is all the cult troops fill a specific role. If your getting your thousand sons shot by small arms that means they can shoot back. In a firefight marine vs thousand sons I know where my money is going on who will win. Berserkers will still slap around most normal marines in a fight, noise marines can unleash lots of devistation at range. Most of the cult troops die as fast as a marine to shooting but the cult troops will win most shoot outs or will make it to melee and most marines can't fight em fairly in melee either. Plus you have options to bolster the troops or debilitate the enemy to tip it further in your favor.

I think Plauge Marines, Noise Marines, and Thousand Sons are all worth the points. You can't make the army work with them in isolation though. My argument is that making them scoring is the key to victory. (Edit: In other words, if you take them as elites, you're doing it wrong)

I think both Plague Marines and Noise Marines (with the FNP icon) will do well under small-arms fire. Thousand Sons might be right up there, but you need some Cultists or regular marines to balance them out and give your opponent other targets.

Having some Terminators, Chaos Spawn, Maulerfiends, or Obliterators will definitely help too. It's all about beefy scoring units, in my opinion. Ideally, your scoring units will be just as deadly as your elites, fast attack, and heavy support options. (Termies, Spawn // Helldrake, Obliterators // Vindicators // Havocs)

Ive got a few games in now with chaos using some old and new units and am still trying to figure somenyhings out.

Against marines.. Berserkers w/ votlw are fantastic... against others its been tough. The first round is promisng and then your down to 2 attacks.. Ack. I havent been able to figure out a good way to use them yet.. Except to make them a target and hope the other stuff lives. Rhinos are to tough to use properly. If your going second to have to hide them so you dont cough up first blood.. And if you go first you might as well go 18.. Thenbif you het blown up or disembark turn 2.. Your still left flapping in the wind. Raiders are to pricey to just storm up willy nilly.

Man i wish i could them a drop pod.

I really like the look of using a couple big noise marine squads.. But there no decent model for it now.. They need a damn plastic box for them.

Thousand sons look really bad to me.. And plague marines for me seem like a wash. Still expensive and just moderatly better than the last book.

I like the idea of a couple big fat blobs of cultists to sit in terrain and hopefuly an objective.. But i havent tried them out yet.

I know your trying mark. But eventually your going to have to admit that the book is utter crap. overcosted. Limiting. Un thought out. Unplaytested crap. with bloated sections and oppurtunity costs that make list building a chore instead of fun

ive been thinking of just continuing to use the 4th edition codex. How would people feel about that? Could i get away with it in the league?

I don't think it's worse than the old book. New options and old units (mostly) getting better and lots of units will be seen that weren't before. Looking over the characters all got either cheaper or better, for most both. They have the cheapest power armor at 13pts. And the options let you make a list how you wanna play. Heck I finally can feel good about putting Huron on the table and he is way better than before.

A few points:

Tim: GK Strike squads die like regular marines, too. Just sayin'

Jesse: I think its a wash vs last book. A few things got better, a few worse, and a lot stayed the same. I think you're right about Cult troops filling certain roles, but I think Mark's also right. They get too big and costly to do anything other than make them troops.

robyn: Don't they have counter attack? Wouldn't that put them to 3 attacks? Or is that only when charged?

Mike B: I wouldn't have an issue with it. Of course, I'd also let you play 3.5, and I might insist on being allowed to play 4.0 Deathwing.

Roland wrote:
Jesse: I think its a wash vs last book. A few things got better, a few worse, and a lot stayed the same. I think you're right about Cult troops filling certain roles, but I think Mark's also right. They get too big and costly to do anything other than make them troops.

So like paladins, purifiers, sanguinary guard, sternguard(kinda), wraith guard, wracks, grotesques, wolf guard (as a full squad), etc? hardly the first book that had units in other slots that people only wanna take as troops because of cost. also think of this, taking cultists as troops with a thousands sons squad. do you wanna shoot the not scoring thousand sons or the scoring troops?

Hell if are allowing that codex beau I want mtg iron warriors back asap lol

Roland wrote:Tim: GK Strike squads die like regular marines, too. Just sayin'

I'm sayin' cult marines are overcosted and crappy. Are you sayin' GK strike squads are overcosted and crappy? You'd have a tough time selling me on that one. At 30" (threat range, more if disembarking from a vehicle) no other troop unit can dish out wounds like a strike squad can. No cult squad even comes close. Oh, they also all have force weapons and psychic powers.

I cannot disagree more with the sentiments expressed by Mark and Jesse. By all means, try out the big units of cult troops. Pay the lord tax. Play against a good army run by a good player and tell me how they do. I predict they will do poorly. For the price of a kitted out 10 man squad you can almost take 20 chaos marines. I just don't see the benefits of paying 20+ points for a marine unless he has a str5 storm bolter, ATSKNF, psychic powers, force weapons, etc.

And can we just stop this talk of fielding cult guys as elites? Noone in his right mind would ever do this.

For me.. Everything did get better on a pure codex basis. The only downside for me is that daemon princes got costed right out of logic.. And i used to use them so much just for fire absorption.

Im going to keep plunking away.. And just take my victories where i can scam them but i know ill be having fun because i sure love me some berserkers. Ill tell you one thing though.. I still like the book more than the grey knight... And i like the grey knights so much.. Damn It all..

Timbo wrote:

Roland wrote:Tim: GK Strike squads die like regular marines, too. Just sayin'

I'm sayin' cult marines are overcosted and crappy. Are you sayin' GK strike squads are overcosted and crappy? You'd have a tough time selling me on that one. At 30" (threat range, more if disembarking from a vehicle) no other troop unit can dish out wounds like a strike squad can. No cult squad even comes close. Oh, they also all have force weapons and psychic powers.

I cannot disagree more with the sentiments expressed by Mark and Jesse. By all means, try out the big units of cult troops. Pay the lord tax. Play against a good army run by a good player and tell me how they do. I predict they will do poorly. For the price of a kitted out 10 man squad you can almost take 20 chaos marines. I just don't see the benefits of paying 20+ points for a marine unless he has a str5 storm bolter, ATSKNF, psychic powers, force weapons, etc.

And can we just stop this talk of fielding cult guys as elites? Noone in his right mind would ever do this.

Actually I was just sayin'.

You said "The problem is they all die to small arms fire just like regular marines ... and are much more expensive."

I was simply pointing out that sentance applies to GK PA squads as well.

I think Noise Marines are pretty darned good.

You could make an argument that the Blastmaster is the best weapon in the game of 40k right now. S8, Blast, AP3, *ignores cover* 48" range. This is combined with dudes who shoot 3 times each and stand in front of the guy with the Blastmaster. Top it off, they're scoring.

Plague Marines are T5 with 3+ and 5+ FNP that they almost always get.

From there, it gets sketchy. I think Thousand Sons are playable, the Tzeench Powers are good, 150pts for 5 dudes is prohibitive, and 23 points per extra dude is too, but they'll hold an objective well.

I think 'zerkeers got the short end of the stick, as they shine in assaults, and it's tough to get them there.

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A 270 point unit of 20 marines is interesting too. It's tempting to add a pair of flamers to that (280) Melta bombs (285), and Veterans of the long war (305). Kit them out with either Bolters or CCW's (the free exchange variety).

Cultitsts are too expensive and too squishy. I could see taking a close-combat squad with a flamer and having them in reserve, walking them in to the backfield when you're opponent is busy dealing with everything else in your army.

This is dipping into "grey knights are overpowered so why isn't my army?" again. We get it, grey knights are horribly under costed. Make strikes 30pts each and let's see how this discussion goes. People who like the book are going to play it there's not much you can say to warn them off at this point.

These discussions have been going very weird lately.

Lets try to at least keep it a bit more positive... Negativity really starts to pile up quickly. Debate about units is great.. I just want to steer it away from the whole.. "the chaos book is horrible" discussion.. Because alot of us will be playing it.. And when the discussion goes that way its easy to take it personal... As in you think people chaos armies are stupid.

No ones said that of course.. But theres a faint dotted line type feeling out there. .

Positive! Especially on an ugly day like today.

Now.. The most important burnimg question of the day.. How to use a heavy khorne based army to first defeat necrons and the potenially another marine type army.. (or maybe eldar?)

Ive made a few lists with plague marines.. but as tim said.. Paying the lord tax adds up quick.

I would love to get two squads of 20 noise marines with a slaneesh lord on a mount as a foundation for an army.. about 1100 points for those three things.. Hmm... Maybe a squad of 20 and 2 squads of 10 just so the shooting is wasted. 18 sonic blaster and 2 blastmasters might be overkill for that ten squad of guardsmen in the trees..

I have to say, I've gone up against the new CSM with my Knights, and they hold their own. Plague Marines really hold their own, with my psybolt only getting par to-wound rolls against them, and seeing a lot of 5+ FNP. Matty, a fairly new Chaos player, managed to get a 8 to 4 points win against me and my module of Necrons. Scalathrax played a HUGE part in that, though, by purging my bubble wrap in one shot.

Also watching a match of Matty vs Canadin, both CSM with Daemon allies, it was an incredibly close game coming down to 3 to 2 points with the Blight Grenades stripping away the Khorne Berzerker's charge bonuses, and the Tallyman doing all sorts of silly things to the army by the end of the match.

I have to agree with Tim in that the cult troops (minus Plague Marines) seem weak to me. I tried writing some Slaanesh based lists and they tended to come up a little short as I kept trying to fit 2-3 10-man units of Noise Marines to control the middle of the board and this left me with too few points to flesh out other areas of need (i.e. long range shooting, anti-tank, etc.).

That being said I think Plague Marines are awesome and are superior (IMO) to GK Strike Squads as a take on all-comers troops choice. T5, 2 Plasma guns and FNP against anything less then S10 seems very solid for a unit of 5-7 guys. Being fearless and having Plague Knives is just icing on the cake. Factor that in with the fact you get Typhus (who seems topnotch to me!) who unlocks said Plague Marines as troops and cheap, Fearless cultists (Zombies!!!) and I think you have the makings of a very solid list.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. Robyn, if you're going the Beserker route I think you're in for a tough time, the game has passed them by (Rhino's being bad for assault troops, overwatch, etc.) and it'll be tough going. Maybe the 15 man mob on foot is the way to go...

The Typhus List with Daemon allies, two units of plauge bearers and Epidemius seems pretty solid.

I'm having trouble mathing out the Noise Marines too. I think 5 man units in Rhino's with Dirge Casters is alright. 95+20(Doom Siren & Melta Bombs)+40(Rhino with Dirge Caster), then have that backed up with a unit on foot with an Icon of Excess (maybe regular marines with the Mark? They aren't fearless then though, unless you drop your lord in there).

You can have 10 man units with Sonic Blasters and a Blast Master in the back for 249 ish points per squad. ... that gets so pricey though.

Slaanesh Lord ~115
2 Hellbrutes with Autocannons 210
1 unit of 20 Noise Marines, CCW, Icon, stuff ~500
2 units of 10 Noise Marines, Shooty with Blast Master ~500
1 unit of 5ish havocs with 4 autocannons ~120

Have you considered taking Huron to let the berserkers infiltrate? A 20m squad hiding behind a building right off the bat 12-18" away could be a great turn 2 suprise. And if you go second you can maybe get turn 1 assaults...
6th is so much more tactical that just trying to run up and hit it with an axe will only work with some builds/armies. Tha squad with a khorne lord (maybe on juggernaut?) could put the hurt on something early. Combine with some daemon engines/oblits and you got anti armor and maybe some cheap cultists to be deck chair units. Also a sidenote but anyone know a good source for demonic axes? I wanna gear some blood letters with axes so 50/50 sword/axe for anti everything.

The berserker route is .. I think a dead end. Im gonna try a few games with them mounted up in a pair of landraider but i dont put much faith it that outcome.

Even when the berserkers get there though.. Facing any assault units of init 4 or higher will be rough. You want to inflict casualties while minimizing your own.. And at init 4 most guys will get to swing back.

Yeah.. A fat mob on foot might be a good distraction.. But them a rhino to partially block los.

I think with daemon allies things start looking better.. Especially with a bloodthirster in tow.

Im gonna have to get more basic troops though for guns. I dont really want to invest in a forgefiend or two for shooting.. Ive.got to much heavy support as it is.

I do want some typhus zombies..

Tasty Taste's Tactics articles on the 4.

Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Thousand Sons
Khorne 'Zerkers

Yes Jesse.. Ive done it all. There might be space for a unit of berserkers in a list.. But basing a whole army off of them is a losing deal.. Unless you get some great luck. Im not trying to use one unit.. I want to use 3-4

Hellblades are power swords .. Cant change them for anything. Faqd to power swords in the first faq.

Thats why bloodletters and bloodcrushers were considered nerfed..

I'de like the slannesh blastmaster squad a lot more if it could take a plasma gun or something on top of that blast master. or if it was 1 per 5 or 1 per 6. (0oo0o magic number!)
The unit also suffers in that +1 init is only useful in melee. You pay for it, then you kit it out with guns that cant shoot well if they move.

TBH i'de much rather have two plasma guns in that squad. I5 champ actually has a chance of winning his challenge. and they can shoot on the move. (which i guess i guess is an advertisement for slannesh marked CSM instead of noise marines)