CSM 5th to 6th Upgrade/downgrade

What I'm working on now. Somewhat limited by what I own.

DP-wings, armor, Mark of Tzeentch, Mastery lvl 2-270
Lord- Power weapon, Plasma pistol, aura, melta bombs- 115
8 Berzerkers- PF, icon/wrath, Rhino-237
10 CSM-PF, Heavy Bolter, flamer, Mark/Khorne, Icon/Wrath, Rhino-255
10 CSM-PF, Heavy Bolter, melta, IconVengeance-210
10 CSM-PW, Meltabombs, PG, LasC- 195
5 Bikes- PF, 2 Melta, Mark/Khorne, Icon/Wrath- 185
5 Havocs- 2 AutoC, 2 ML- 125
Defiler- 195
3 Oblitorators- 210

1997 total

Totally not feeling the DP
I'm liking the FA and HS.
I'd like to add my Khorne Daemons (700 pts, Skulltaker, 2x 15 Bloodletters), Thinking I can drop the DP and one CSM squad. Would still need to drop 232 more to fit. Maybe lose the Havocs?

I kinda like the defiler right now, it got Demonforge, Daemon, and the possessed rule (ignore shaken/stunned on a 2+). I think it also got "It will not die" so it can regen hull points.

Yup, it has all of the above.

If you completely go in the cheap, Havocs are insanely cheap. 5 Havocs with 4 AC's runs 115 pts.

Ya, nothing wrong with 4 autocannons. 8 S7 shots gives you a good chance at supressing a AV10/11 flyer.

Does anyone understand how terrible a 195 point, ballistic skill 3 battlecannon is? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! You guys have all played 40K before, right? Remember how noone took regular Leman Russes when they could shoot other weapons along with their battlecannons and were armour 14 and way less than 195 points? Remember that?

I can't do it. DP is out. Bare minimum for a DP is a mark, wings and armor. Thats 220 points, 245 if you want a psyker. Mastery 2 sorcerer in PA it is. Maybe plug in the helbrute or both cultist sqds.

Yeah, I remember that. I just don't think I have anything better to plug in.

Past that I have
A bunch of lords and sorcerers
The contents of dark vengeance
A unit of termies

Maybe just pull off that and the dp, and pop in a cheap herald and 2 units of bloodletters?

Why a Defiler >>> A Leman Russ

well, it has a 5+ invul, good regeneration, 4 HP, and I cna mellee stuff with S-10 smash face

Leman russ is jsut a battle cannon with heavy bolters attached (R-armor 10 in melee) oh and 3 HP

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Thoughts on new codex:

Very happy with new Chaos Lords and Special character profiles/
DP is out, cost went way up (even with new stat boost). I will bring him along for my 1/18 chance to spawn him every time a champion of mine kills a character.

Very happy with discount on Khorne Berzerkers and Basic CSM... and havoks/predators/oblitz also cheaper

Biggest thing --- Typhus!!!!!!!
PLAGUE ZOMBIES!!!!!!

only problem --- wording.... plague zombies cannot purchase options. buying 25 addition zombies at 4 pts ea is an option. If they errata this and say I can have 35 strong zombie units for 150 points, then I will be super happy.

1499

HQ
230 Typhus
160 Kharn

Troops
150 35 Plague Zombies
150 35 Plague Zombies
199 8 Berzerkers, 4 chainaxe, powerfist
199 8 Berzerkers, 4 chainaxe, powerfist

Heavy
148 7 Havoks, 4 Autocannon,Vets
115 Predator, Lascannons
148 Obliterators, MoK

At higher points, more zombies... or maybe remove khorne aspect, add more zombies and daemons?

Unless they rule that zombie squads are staying 10 men strong, then I'll just cover the feild in 19 point berzerkers with Kharn somewhere in there... and a Biker Lord with the AXE OF BLIND FURY!!! 8.5 STR 6 AP 2 attacks on the charge that cut out peoples eyes!!

Also, noise marines are 20 points a head with sonic blasters...

Tim, now that partial template hits a full stength, the dynamic is a bit different. The defiler also happens to be a walker, making it more resilient in close combat. I think we need to re-evaluate the large blast weapons. The dynamic is different. 2d6-3 with a 5" radius plus the size of vehicle targets, your likely to take a hull point off and get a suppression result (3,5,6)

canadin wrote:Why a Defiler >>> A Leman Russ

well, it has a 5+ invul, good regeneration, 4 HP, and I cna mellee stuff with S-10 smash face

I've played defilers before. Take the melee stats and throw them away. Defilers don't get to fight in melee. You are paying 195 points for a BS3 battlecannon. A large blast that is AP3. I would take armour 14 versus a 5+ invul and an extra hull point any day. Either your defiler will get one-shotted or ignored. Noone is going to try to grind it down.

@Mark: Play the defiler/blast master army. You get about 6 shots a turn that are str 8 and AP3. Super scary!

But my defiler is magnetized.

Pussy!

LOL.

I don't think the Defiler is the bee's knees by any means, and 2 would be much better than the single, but I just don't see any better choices out of what I have. The DP is going away and will likely be replaced by a Sorc and the helbrute. I'm maxed out on HQ, the chosen suck worse than a $5 hooker and the cultists aren't viable as 10 man squads (prob not as 20 man either).

The Termies are probably my only real decent option to replace the defiler. They're the 3rd ed metal ones, so I've got a PF and chain fist, then a bunch of power weapons (I suppose the power axe isn't a total loss, as it's AP2). Worst case, they're pointy and heavy, so I could at least take an eye out.

As much as I'd love to play an army with 3 units of 10 Shooty Noise Marines... I don't think it's in the cards. That and I'm not going to get a defiler... ^_^
8 guys with Sonic Blasters and a Blast Master, champ frying some dudes on overwatch, if he needs to.... ya. 8x3 is a lot of pinning, ignores cover shots, being that dudes on foot and in cover are a thing in this edition. Blastmaster is pretty darned nifty too, although it's 30pts.

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I think I'll lose a few games with some of the stuff I have and see where the holes are. I think getting some Obliterators will be an obvious choice. I never got any when they were added (as I had started Tau by then). A unit of 2 or 3 obliterators, a forgefiend, and a predator seems pretty swanky. Mix that with 2 Hellbrutes and a unit of (probably 3) terminators. Then a couple units of CSM, and some scoring cultists, that sounds like an army.

I was looking at mutilators yesterday and realized they were not fearless .. And leadership.

Flipping in terror.. I realized oblits are the same.. *sigh*

The good news being you have to lose a model before taking a test.. And luckily youll always be able to regroup.. But still.. Damn.

What is the LD of oblits/mutilators?

Whoops i meant to type leadership 8

Leadership is probably one of the major downgrades of the entire book. Everyone keeps harping on the fact that you can take "huge blobs of 13 point MEQs" but those same people also seem to forget that that huge blob of ld 8 marines can run off the table fairly easily. its also subject to Fear and all the other crap that normal marines just shrug off.

Tim overstates. there are situations where you do get to use the defiler's CC abilities. I'm sure Beau can attest to efficacy vs deepstriking terminators. being able to provide a counter-charge threat in your backfield is a useful thing. That being said.. those situations are rare and paying 200 points for it is too much. It was expensive at 150, and i dont think a 5+ save makes up for it. you can almost buy a dreadnought and a Vindicator for the same price.

I would just use one or two of your marine vehicles to sub in for now Beau. stick a chaos marine on the back of a vindi or a pred and say its been captured.

What's looking good to me right now.

Sorcerers and to a lesser degree, lord.
Cheapish sqds with the fearless banner
Bike squads
Preds, vindis, havocs and oblits
Elites is kinda weird, nothing much stands out to me.


Off the top o me head
2x lvl 1 sorc
4x csm in rhino, pf, Ml, melts
2x helbrute w/ reaper and ml
2x 5 bike sqds, pf, 2x melta
2x pred(Ac/las)

everything has icon of vengeance.

Rhaevyn wrote:
Tim overstates.

No way man. I've never overstated anything in my life.

New thought, no more nurgle

Kharn + 20 man Khorne Chaos Space Marines, they are fearless and hate everyone, and furious charge, reroll charge range. PF champ, melta guns

Apostle + 20 Man Khorne Chaos Space Marines, they are ALSO fearless and hate everyone, and ''
aaand the burning brand of skalathrax, cuz,,,, I mean yeah that just looks like fun, torrent, souls blaze, S4 AP3... and it is Kharn's flamer, which is sweet

so 20 men are cheap, scared of nothing, 3 A ea, (4 on charge) re-roll to hit 1st round combat, Must playtest but I rly like the idea

Not very mobile, will ally with air support.. (DakkaJet or Lord of Change) and defnitly 3 heavy slots (blitz, havoks, predator)