CSM codex hands on

Lot of folks were able to fondle.. i mean Take a look at the CSM codex at gamesday UK on Saturday. below is a compilation of whats inside. lots of super sneaky phone pics of pages floating about the interwebs as well.

Overall, I'm fairly underwhelmed. Looks to me like the 4th ed codex with some fail overpriced daemon engines added and nothing to address the pricing issues. In fact generic base CSM got worse, as to make them what they are now, you have to spend 2 points for the CC weapon, and then pay for veterans of the long war to get back to 10 LD. Hatred (space marines) is funky and all, but i don't want to pay points for it so it can not be used against everyone else. Being Force Fed sergeants also = fail. no Undivided Chaos Icon available either, closest one grants Fearless and is 25 points instead of 10.

The HQ slot is woefully over-loaded too. Dark apostles and Warpsmiths are HQ choices, not the elites that was rumored. All the old choices got more expensive. A Tzeench DP can hit 300points without breaking a sweat.

Bright spots in the codex so far . Biomancy availability. Terminators remained the same, no being force fed Pfists. Cultists. Zombies. Dreadnoughts only rage when losing hull points ->All results are good. Mutilators.

(3.5 is dead and never returning.)

General
everything in the codex either had models or will have by the time the codex hits (from the current advance orders).

Veteran of the Long War is a chaos USR that gives Hatred: Space Marines this is defined as ALL space marine books e.g. SW, BA, GK, etc.

Single models carry the icon. So, yes, they can be sniped.

Icons require the specific Marks of Chaos

Lots of units can take gift of mutation for 10pts which allows a Boon table roll at the start of the game.

As far as I saw the only FOC manipulation is moving some of the elites to troops using marks for their relative gods

Sadly no legion material that I saw. You can theme things around particular gods if you like but otherwise it's only paint that'll set legions apart. Heresy books from FW do more than enough in that department though.

HQ
Marks for lords unlock the relevant elites to be troops e.g. khorne = berserkers.
Chaos Lords
Can chose from most sections of the wargear chart and can be a terminator. Main thing is that giving him a mark unlocks the elites for that particular god (e.g. noise marines for Slaanesh) as troops.

Then the lords can take a mark to make stuff troops if you don't want an SC to do the same. Nothing saying you can't have 2 lords with 2 different marks. Finally sorcerer with mark of tzeentch makes 1ks troops.

Dark Apostle
The Dark Apostle allows units within 6" to use his leadership of 10.
FOC is HQ no way to become elite, 105pts,
no sign of another model so only one model pose for this guy
cannot take terminator armour

Daemon Princes
WS9 BS5 S6 T5 W4 I8 A5 Ld9 5++ save that's before any upgrades of course.
There is a special table for Daemon Princes and what they get for their Marks:
Khorne - Furious Charge, Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh)
Tzeentch - Reroll saving throw results of 1, Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle)
Nurgle - Shrouded, Slow and Purposeful, Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch)
Slaanesh - Fleet, Rending, Run an Additional 3", Hatred (Daemons of Khorne)
Daemon princes are WS9 now at least so normal troops will be needing 5s in combat.
Prince doesn't use icons as far as I can tell. You can pick which god he belongs to and make him upto mastery level 3 psyker.

Sorcerors
Generate powers for free (Bio,Pyro,Telepathy). Don't think mark makes them high mastery. Can pay 25pts per level to make a sorcerer upto ML3.

Yes, they start at 60pts and can take wargear from a lot of different sections of the list. Can pay 25pts per level to increase their mastery rating. They can be terminators and take bio/pyro/telepathy as standard. Can take chaos rewards & artefacts.

sorcerer with mark of tzeentch makes 1ks troops.

Ahriman
Comes with boltgun with inferno bolts
His warlord trait allows D3 INFANTRY units to infiltrate.

Kharne
160pts, fearless, furious charge, mark of khorne

Abbadon
265pts. Chosen can be taken as troops. Can choose to either use Drach'nyen at +1S AP3 or Talon at x2S AP2 (both at full initiative). Gives preferred enemy space marines to every unit in 12"

Lucius the Eternal
Similar stuff. Lash reduces attacks and armour causes wounds when he passes saves. Gets a bonus in challenges that I can't remember. Statline is the same. Noise marines are troops in his army.

Elite
Beserkers
Can all take a chain axe for +2pts. Champion can take anything from Melee or Ranged wargear list plus gift of mutation.
Squad can have Veterans of the Long War which is hatred of all marines (including GK, BA, SW, etc)
Fearless, Furious Charge and Mark of Khorne (Counter Attack and Rage)
chain axes are AP4.
2 plasma pistols as before and still 15pts each.

Terminators
Usual options and 31pts base cost each.

Hellbrutes
When a hellbrute loses a hull point you roll a D3 and have to try and direct the effects to the model that caused the damage.

Roll a D3 in next movement phase. 1 = immobilised (temporary) but fire twice at unit that caused damage, 2 = recovers crew shaken/stunned then has Rage, 3 = recovers shake/stun and gets fleet & rage and must run if not within 12" of an enemy

Noise Marines
Noise Marines are 95pts for 4 plus champ then 17pts each.
Fabius has FNP, Rod inflicts Instant Death, Needler is Ass 5 poisoned 2+. Think he's 165pts
Sonic Blaster: 24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/3, Ignore Cover

Blastmaster: Same as before but adds Ignore Cover

Plague Marines
1) 120pts then 24 each
2) 90pts then 18pts. Too many options to list
Plague Marines have feel no pain

Thousand Sons
They're 150pts for 4 + sorcerer then 23pts each (up to 15 more). Sorcerer can take gift of mutation (allows boon table roll at start of game)

Possessed
Possessed are 26pts each in squads of upto 20, Daemon (5++ save), fearless, fleet, 2 attacls base. and roll on D3 table 1. re-roll to wound, 2. ap3 attacks, 3. +1 attacks and initiative.

Chosen
2 base attacks and access to a lot of stuff

Mutilators
55pts each and can be in units of 3 maximum. Can take one of the marks of chaos. They're like obliterators but CC versions. 2 wounds, 2 base attacks, 2+ save and can deep strike.
Can chose from pair of chainfists, lightning claws, power axes, power mauls and power swords but not the same twice in a row.

Troops
Cultists
50 for first 10 and then 4 pts each for another 25 giving you 35 max in total.
50 points for 9 + champ and then 4pts for upto 25 more. One in every 10 can take flamer/stubber and champ can have a shot gun. Can take one of the four marks at 1 or 2 pts per model.

All can swap pistol for autogun for a point each. Then 1 in 10 can take heavy stubber/flamer and finally champ can have a shotgun.

All cultists in a Typhus army can be zombies. Get fearless, FNP and S&P. Can't take any options and only count as having a single CC weapon.

cultists can take a mark but not icons. Plague zombies are just special cultists so I would say they're scoring. With FNP and Fearless they'll be hard to shift from an objective in cover too!

Chaos Space Marines
Basic loadout is cheap. Tons of options and can take mark/icon from all 4 gods. Cult marines are all elites and have mark of their appropriate god. Some can take icons.

they only got only a boltgun and bolt pistol
these guys have are 13pts each but 15 if you want CC weapon for the extra attack whilst keeping the bolter.

Fast Attack
Heldrake
A Rule is called Meteoric Descent though and can take hades autocannon or baleflamer.
Hades is 4 shots at S8 AP4 though.

Chaos Bikes
70pts for 2 plus champ then 20 each
not sure where this goes......
there are god specific steeds than give different bonuses e.g. +2 wounds, +1 attack for Nurgle one

Warp Talons
Warp Talons seem like they'll be pretty good as they get a 5++ I think.
160pts for 4 plus champ then 30 each. Champ can take 2 gifts of mutation. All have a pair of lightning claws. Can't take icons only marks. Can't change weapons. Daemons rule gives them a 5++ save though so they're 3+/5++

Raptors
can take both marks and their appropriate icons.

Heavy Support
Havocs
Havocs 75pts for 4 + asp champ, weapons are more reasonably priced FLAKK MISSILES ARE 10PTS PER MODEL AND CAN BE TAKEN WITH FRAG AND KRAK

Obliterators
Oblits are 70pts
70 each (i.e. 5pts cheaper). Unit size of 3. Lose 1pt of Ld but otherwise same stats. Can take a mark.

Forgefiend
can basically have two hades or two ectoplasma cannons (S8 AP2 Blast) - 25 points more if you want two ecto cannons

Land Raider
Land raider is pretty much unchanged from previous book but is 230pts

The big shining points for me are Chaos lords lookong decent.. Or at the very least getting to tgh 5.

Berserkers.look good. I dont think chainnaxes are worth 2 points.. Maybe a few per unit.. Not sure yet.. But i like how it was looking.

I need to know if they can take the icon that lets them reroll charge.. Thats extremely important for me.

And i love the dragon rules

Its looking better than the current one to me.. But still hard to tell although im feeling optimistic.

Ive never used lots of units of basic marines. I would almost always take one with the chaos glory mark tonsit on an objective with an autocannon or something. They would almost always survive and weee fantastic.. So i am a bit sad to see the undivided mark dissapear.

Possessed and bikes are looking better. I do like how a unit (or just champion) can buy a boon. Although.. I dont know how a unit would buy it.. What if you got turn into.daemon prince...

Its always the champion buying the boon.(and all units are force-fed a champ now =( ) So just like the old days, if you turn into a spawn or a prince, the unit boots you out of the squad before you can cause damage. (both of those chaos spawn models i own will finally see use. got to have the model available if you want the spawn ... or daemon prince! to be placed.)

helldrake vector strikes only being STR 7 make it fairly... meh. single hades cannon ... meh. the flamer is cool, but who pays 180 points for a flying flamer? even if it is str 6 ap3.

I just wish they had gotten a little more creative. The idea of dark apostles acting like Sanguinary priests and adding abilities to units is a great mechanic. and somehow includeing lesser warpsmiths would have been great too. now its just like having a master of the forge... only not as good.

Perhaps i just need to embrace the gods again and get out of my current mindset. that Khorne lord on a Jugger moving 12inches and smashing faces with his ap2 daemon weapon sounds like the new order of the day.

Yeah.. The dragon seems much.worse than firat reported.

Going from str 10 to 7 on the vector isnt that big of a deal.. But the single hades cannon is much more dissapointing.

Well 3.5 should never return, that book was op as hell. The plague marine list had the best margine for winning out of all lists at that time...It could deal with anything and everything easily.

I prefered lists w/ butter.

so the new points include champs now right? thats a big points difference from before.
wtb nurgle lord...

yeah. new units are all 4 dudes and a Sarge for XYZ points Plus XY points for additional dudes.

its a fairly standard practice in most of the current codecies... so i guess its not surprising.

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.ca/2012/09/chaos-space-marine-codex-photos.html

Plague knives: melee poisoned 4+

Power scourge: str 8 ap 2 flail (drednaught weapon I believe)
Flail: deducts d3 WS from all enemy models in base contact.

Hades auto cannon 36' str 8 pa4 heavy 4 pinning

ectoplasm cannon is only range 24

doom syren str 5 ap 3 template !!!

so dreads are now hellbrutes?

So cultists look more expensive than originally thought. Deamon Princes got some nice stat boosts, but may get priced out of takability. The only thing that had me slightly excited is that bikes look cheap. Although I suspect that's a typo. No way it's 20 points for a chaos bike.

Timbo wrote:So cultists look more expensive than originally thought. Deamon Princes got some nice stat boosts, but may get priced out of takability. The only thing that had me slightly excited is that bikes look cheap. Although I suspect that's a typo. No way it's 20 points for a chaos bike.

Yeah demon prince look great, but im weary of their cost, however you can have characters turn into demon princes which would be a huge swing.

Cultists are still good for their points. They are ld 7/8 instead of 6/7 and ws/bs 3 instead of 2 for one or both. I would probably also shed a 5+ save to a 6+ to gain a point a guardsman back.

Bikes look way good for 20 points. I am weary of that too. Who would take raptors for 17 points, when you get the same thing at toughness 5 for 3 points more? I think bikes are the slower sellers last go around so maybe this is the unit they push for people to buy.

Those are the exact costs for Space Marine scout bikers so there is no way that can be accurate. Cultists seem pretty meh to me. I can see them running away - a lot. Bulking up the unit seems like a recipe for disappointment. Although if regular CSMs get more expensive then cultists might have to be used. At least the models are cheap and plentiful. Those lightning claw guys still look terrible. Plague Marines went up in price? WTF? I guess nobody read the Grey Knights codex?

Timbo wrote:Plague Marines went up in price? WTF? I guess nobody read the Grey Knights codex?

120 for 5 then 24 each additional so 240 per squad with champ compared to 115 base and 23 per guy so 230 then 15 for sarge to 245 plus they got plague knives now.
not grey knights cheap but at least the chaos codex passed its ward save.

Ya, 50+ pts for a unit of cultists is too much. When they were comparable to grots, they were good.

Maybe a unit held in reserve to walk on and grab a backfield objective?

Cultists are one of the bright points so far for me. plenty of ways to use them and make them fearless. as soon as they are fearless the 4 points per model is ok. Fearless makes them useful in multiple ways. some armies will mop them up, others wont have an answer for the scoring fearless blob in cover. (not unsupported in a corner on an objective like in the battle report. but otherwise... haha)

ehhh... they're still toughness 3 and cover is 5+ I'll play them in some games, but in a tournament situation, I want something a little more... reliable.

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Something I just realized. Sonic Blasters being 24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/3 Ignores cover...

When you move, you get two shots... at HALF RANGE. A unit of Noise Marines standing still and pouring out shots at Armour 5 or 6 xenos might be effective, or add in a blastmaster for the S8 AP3 ignores cover blast, otherwise, it's the close-combat noise marines all the way, with the S5 AP3 Template doom-siren.

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Slaneesh Termies with a Power Maul captain dude and an Icon to grant FNP... seems good. Probably expensive.

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What mastery level do you buy for your Psyker? 2? 3 (so you can get all teh powerz?) 60 for lvl 1, 85 for lvl 2, 110 for lvl 3. The top tier power is kinda really good for all three.

You dont buy a psyker because you spent 180 points on ya Tooled up lord so you could field zerkers, noise or plaugers as troops and you want to run a Warpsmith or a dark apostle.



Joking aside... if your investing in a Sorcerer, invest in him. might as well get the extra psychic defense and charge to be able to use a couple spells on top of your force weapon.

Lore Weaver wrote:
Something I just realized. Sonic Blasters being 24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/3 Ignores cover...

When you move, you get two shots... at HALF RANGE. A unit of Noise Marines standing still and pouring out shots at Armour 5 or 6 xenos might be effective, or add in a blastmaster for the S8 AP3 ignores cover blast, otherwise, it's the close-combat noise marines all the way, with the S5 AP3 Template doom-siren.

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yeah, not a big fan of 24inch salvo weapons.

The ignores cover blastmaster may be where its at. First turn shots during nightfight. Stealth and shrouded are cover saves. Jink saves are cover saves. Aegis defense lines are cover saves. whole lot of cover saves out there. and then give your Mandated(grumble) Sarj a powermaul to whack people @ I5 if they get in range