1999 point game, wed or thurs

I guess the league is over, but I would like to get a feel for this new eidtion.

As such, would anyone wanna get a game this wednesday (jul 11) or thursday (jul 12)?
1999 points (no double force org charts) sometime in the evening, 6/7pm?

I can't, but you could always ask for 1997+3. :-)

So, are we calling 2000 with only 1 force org something like 1999+1 points?

If we can make 1999+1 a thing for play at the Den in general, that would be great. While some armies can do lots to fill up the final 4 points, I know Necrons can only do it if you do weird and wacky things with you Warriors and such.

party like its 1999.

Or people could do something crazy like play a few games with double org charts before making a decision *gasp*!

C'mon people, stop with the doom and gloom and try it out.

P.S. Good article on 3++ that speaks to the issue.

miv305 wrote:Or people could do something crazy like play a few games with double org charts before making a decision *gasp*!

C'mon people, stop with the doom and gloom and try it out.

P.S. Good article on 3++ that speaks to the issue.

link?

links or it doesn't exist!!

miv305 wrote:Or people could do something crazy like play a few games with double org charts before making a decision *gasp*!

C'mon people, stop with the doom and gloom and try it out.

P.S. Good article on 3++ that speaks to the issue.

Oh I agree Mike, but that won't stop me from talking about how abusive it CAN be. And that's just it. Around here we won't see anything majorly over the top, but the potential is there. I think the issue mainly lies in the tournament aspect, especially the competitve one. Can you imagine going to a 2000pt tourny and your opponent puts one of those cheese fests in front of you? May as well walk away and grab lunch early.

Mike is right though.. In the right context it would be fun to have double force org.. People tend to jump to the extreme for the most part.

Would someone field 8 monstrous flyers in a 2000 point daemon list.. Prob not. If they did.. Theyd def take some heat for cheeseballing it..

oh for God's sake, how lazy are you guys? Google "3++ is the New Black".

Voth: For what its worth I don't think it's broken, I think it's worse. It's just stupid. You can use 2 FOC's. Whoop-de-f******-do. So can your opponent. So you're basically playing 2-1000pt games at the same time. This solves what problems? It might be fun, it's a different way to play, but it doesn't fundamentally change anything, so why do it at all?

My issue with the the whole "2 FOC" thing it that its a flawed premise. "At 2000 pts the FOC becomes a limiting factor..." With a Std FOC, Allies and Fortifications, FOC becomes a factor at about 3500-4500 pts.

If someone wants to play it, fine. I just think everyone's gonna be surprised that its basically the same game.

The problem I see with the double FoC is a balanced spam.

Playing back in 3rd ed, the most annoying (and probably strongest) armies were all the ones who could screw with the chart:: Eldar, Iron Warriors, IG armoured company

Eldar was allowed to pop aspect warriors into troop slots, so you now had Dark Reapers as troops and all falcons in heavies. On turn 1-2 you could blast most of your opponents army off the table.

Iron Warriors was also pretty horrifying with 4 heavy slots (defilers, predators, havoks, watev... but 4 of them!) and some oblitz in the elites slot. This army was the strongest all comers list, but it had trouble fighting off the eldar since Reapers and Falcons were really good at killing marines.

And then was the IG, where you put down like 6 or 8 or so Leman Russ Tanks and just laughed as you battle cannoned everyone and everything away.

Yes I did read the article, and I dont think that 6x lists are that good (12-18 oblits is overkill) but there is a way to overspam heavy slots and I frankly beleive that that can make an un-fair army.

The Best example that comes to mind would be Guard + Chaos Marines. Double guard is simply 2 command squads then 4 vet squads, and now 6 Fast (1 Valkyrie or Vendetta for each squad) AND 6 heavy slots (2x Manticore, Hydra, Basilisk, Leman Russ A, Leman Russ B) PLUS ally up to some marines so you can actually hold the line with like 2x10 plague marines and a Daemon Prince, and get an extra heavy slot... for something like Obltitz.

Yes vehicles arnt as resilient, and its a new edition so maybe this isnt busted, but I frankly beleive you shouldnt be allowed to place that many guns down and blast your opponent off the board if u get 1st turn.

Yes you dont HAVE to do that, but I would prefer that for balace sake, people do not have access to more than 3-4 heavy slots.

Adam: In your 3rd examples you are forgetting the key point. They were annoying b/c they could take 4 HS and you could take 3 max. EVERYONE can take 6 HS, or FA or whatever now in double FOC.

That guard list sounds nasty yes. Now split it in half. (One command squad, 2 melta vet, 3 Valks or Vendetta, and whatever you want in Heavy @ 1000?). Is that a big bad 1000 pt list? Make a list that beats THAT, and then double it.

And THAT is why I think double FOC is pointless.

Play whatever you both agree to. i'll be asking for 1999 points so that i know what i'm playing against.

I'm not going to come to a gun fight with my trusty prison shiv.

@Canadin:
That guard example is silly, if you have 2 Guard HQ's, 6 squads of vets, 6 Vendetta's, 6 Russ/other Heavy vehicle squadrons, 20 plague marines and a demon prince you are playing a 3.5k point game...

@Beau:
I see your point to a certain extent but disagree that it's a bad thing because doubling up allows more flexibility and by making it standard practice it will be something that a person can regularily experience as opposed to having to plan it out beforehand (i.e. In the 13 years I've played I think I ran double force org once, now any time it's 2k and up it'll be standard practice).

I think the best part of using a double force org is not to take 6 Vendetta's instead of 3, it's taking 4 VEndetta's, 1 Hellhound and 1 squad of scouting Sentinels. I think as new codecies are released and people get better at the 6th edition game we'll find that option 2 will be better then simply spamming 1 thing, it happened in 5th and I'm confident it'll happen again.

I concer. Guard armys work beatter when fully mobile and if we do end up takeing valks or vendettas we would probly run only 2 or 3 of them (depending on what the pts value is) and we can also get more troops in by useing a inf platoon. Keep in mind the some IG players like myself see vets as more of a well let me put it tish way. The USMC has 3 types of inf moterized, mechanical and Force Recon (keep in mind that all moderen inf regaments are now morterizid or mechacnical.) Force Recon are better trained merines, ther not as good as delta still goin before the invation to take out things like targeting sytems and so on. The storm troopers are more like delta. Vets are jest to expensive if i want have a crapp load of heavy suport with me. oh yea and if we wanted more sentanals then other fast suport we can put 3 ventettas in one squadren same withe the hellhounds.

@Voth: I read it, good article, made me rethink my position. The key factor for me, and probably many of us, is that I won't buy models to do what I think (and only think, no evidence) will abuse the format. I'll totally give it a go with what I've got though.

@Voth: I don't necessarily think its a bad think, it just seems slightly pointless to me. Is GW saying they feel a 1000 pt list is inherently more balanced??? I get that there will be more options to try and that aspect might be fun. I rather see them playing along the lines of the Team tourney games jacked up a bit.

I just don't get the people saying "Its fixes Nids b/c they can take 6 HS, 6 Tervigons, etc...". Like I said, your opponent gets 2xFOC as well. And GW reasoning (FOC limits choice at that point level; thats whats its SUPPOSED to do:) just doesnt fly to me.

I have no prob with it at 2500, and think it has no place in 1500. 2000 seems to be the sticking point. Everybody just say 2000 for 2xFOC and 1999+1 for 1 FOC for something when requesting games, I guess.

If I came across like I had a bunch of sand in my vajayjay, I apoligize. Its been a fun last 2 days at work.

@Beau
You didn't come across in a bad way, no worries there! I've been a prophet of doom myself, you should have seen my face when the IG book was released and I first read the Vendetta rules...

@Everyone
I think the trick will be not seeing it as an opportunity to take 2x of what you're already taking but, like Robyn's example illustrates, taking a bunch of stuff that works well together. Nid's benefit the most at 2k because they can take Deathleaper, and still roll out with 2-3 squads of Hiveguard, Ymgarl's, etc. Eldar Heavy Support is another good example, I can take 2 Prism's, 2 Wraithlord's and some War Walkers. Some of those older (or poorly written in the poor bugs case) codecies have such restrictive unit slotting.

Just my 2 cents anyways.

The big thing I'd want to do is run a Destroyer Lord and still get full court compliment. Or be able to get three slots of HS Armor and still field Spyders.

i think the only reason they doubled the FOC @ 2000 is because in their minds, most only play at 1500.

it also lets you do something else; now those big battles that let you play 'every' model you own can be done without having to call it an apoc game; this is GWs way of letting you play those BIG games without seeing super heavies and titans pop up. because sometimes, you want 4, or 5, slots to field a thunderfire, 2 predators, a helios, and a vindicator. or maybe now, i can finally fit in my devastator squads that always sit it out because i have to take other units before them.

the last 2 years i've found it frustrating only having 3 slots because what i 'wanted' to field at 2000 meant needing a 4th heavy slot. now GW made it so i can.

now if i play, say mark, now i can take 2 thunderfires, and a pair of predator destructors or vindicators to wipe out his damn annoying little scarabs with templates of death and destruction long before they make cocktail wienies out of my hulls.

no one here is gonna load up with spammed squads of big scaries, because they cost to damn much to get the models to do it. face it. we're cheap stingy bastards. we 'know' we are. show of hands; who's gonna go out and buy 18 IG tanks @ $50 a pop right now? ok....and who's gonna go out and spend $40/model for 12-18 oblitz?

exactly. we're too cheap to waste that kind of coin. besides. painting that many of the SAME model is a royal P.I.T.A. i only need to paint another 18 guys and i'll have 4 complete tactical squads and already i find it annoying painting the same stupid model over and over. and i've had them for almost 8 months now. little plastic bastards. staring at me with impunity cause they're not painted yet. tch.

there's also the fact that if any one of us spammed something like that against the rest of us, the first person to play against it would be running onto the forums and calling the guy an asshat and telling us all what he did. and then they'd get no games in for a few months. don't deny it; we all do it at some point.

our own cheapness and gossipness would prevent any abuse of the doubling of the FOC.

now all that said, i want to see someone cap out 12, yes, TWELVE! troop slots. that would be awesome to see. robyn, i bet you have enough berserkers to run 12 squads of 8 down the field, couldn't you? that would deserve pics just to show how cool that would look theme-wise and model-wise. and the look of crapping their pants your opponent might have seeing that rushing down the table.

*maths*

I only have enough dudes to do 10 squads of troops currently, and those would all be 5 man squads. Could be interesting, but I don't think that works out too well with Warriors and Immortals.

I have to say, though, 12-18 Oblitorators sounds like me going to town on some Termies with Green Stuff, and I did just get an air brush...

12 troops would be somewhat difficult @ 2000, at least for marines. I'm pretty sure Alex or someone could run a heck of a green tide there tho, or a few of the Nid guys could run waves of Gaunts....

12 full tact squads would be around 2400 pts, assuming some upgrades. support elements would likely take that to 3000-3500pts, I'd assume near the high end.

Hmm now I'm thinking

MotF-Conversion beamer-120
Dread-MM, HF-115
Dread-MM, HF-115
Scouts (10)-Sniper Rifles, Telion-200
Tact Squad(10)-MG, MM, Sgt w/ PF and Combi-M, Rhino-245
Tact Squad (10)-MG, MM, Sgt w/ PF, Rhino-235
Attack Bike Sqd (2)-2x MM-100
Attack Bike Sqd (2)-2x MM-100
Pred-A/C, HB Sponsons-85
Pred-A/C, HB Sponsons-85

Like to add...
Vindi-125
ML Devs-150
LasBack-75
Aegis Lines w/ quad gun-100

150 pts left and I need an HQ and T. maybe drop the lasback, add a combat squad and cheap capt?

I know i have 3 defilers that i would love to field beside a predator and two units of obliterators. =/ not that defilers are overpowered by any stretch.

I'll probably be converting a couple rhino's to vindicators now as well. Just dont see them being much more useful than a few extra dudes in a squad on foot. and the vindi just seems beefy now that its going to fire that cannon every turn until you blow it up.