Grey Knights.. annoying?

Roland wrote:Any chance of seeing the 2 list side by side?

If memory serves correct (was months ago) my list was:
Libby - null, avenge
TH/SS Terms in LR
Sniper scouts
5 marines w/combi-melt and pfist in Las/plas Razorback
10 marines all melta'd out in rhino
2 MM/HF speeders
2 Pred destructors

I think(?)

Mike was playing (he may have to correct me)
Grandmaster
10 terminators
3 dreads, (no twin linked autocannons)
2 units of power armoured guys in razorbacks

miv305 wrote:

gluvzer wrote:However, I won't listen to people trying to tell me that the codex is not overpowered.

In all honesty what army book written in the past 2 years (minus Nids of course!) do people not consider overpowered? IG, Wolves, Blood Angels, GK's, Dark Eldar all have been called broken at one time or another. I still feel that IG is a completely over the top book (especially if a person plays it in a ruthless fashion) and I remain totally convinced that mech Blood Angels is the best army possible.

Luckily no one in our community plays it

My last post was my attempt to end my part in this discussion as I felt I said my bit and I didn't want further argument on my part. Apparently not. I guess I'm just that shitty at the game that I will get my ass handed to me with my vanilla and BA everytime. I'll save the rest. I've picked up on the implying as well.

Heh. Except I need an extra 50 points to beat you Ryan!

miv305 wrote:@Tim - My GK list is a big unit of Terminators with a Grandmaster, 2 Dreads and 1 of each power armor squad minus purifiers. It features 0 transports, 0 purifiers, 0 henchmen and contains 1 duplicate choice...how is that not fluffy?

Whether it's fluffy or not is not the issue. Insisting that it is fluffy is a passive-aggressive way of rubbing it in your opponent's face when you win. Just say, "This is my army." Not: "This is my intentionally unoptimized army." Then if your opponent loses he just loses to an army. He doesn't lose with the insinuation that you could have beaten him much worse.

@Tim - I see what you're saying now about the fluffy claim, although that wasn't my intent and I apologize if that's how it's coming across. I didn't mean to imply that I'm awesome and can beat good lists with bad ones! I also don't mean to equate fluffy with non-optimized (and clearly have used the word 'optimized' in the wrong fashion during my previous posts), as I think my footslogging list is optimized at what it does, it's just not a Crowe/Coteaz combo monster.

On a related note one of the things I meant to stress during this discussion, and have admittedly done a terrible job of, is why I think Grey Knights perform so well against all-comers lists in our gaming group.

We all know victory in 5th edition is typically about which side can disable their opponents vehicles the fastest. This leads to a lot of melta type weapons for abvious reasons, their effective at what they do. When I design a list the first thing I ask myself is how many tanks can I neutralize in a turn, if the answer is maybe 2 or 3 I go back to the drawing board because I know games will suck as my opponent rolls over me with his metal boxes.

Grey Knight Terminator lists flip this type of thinking on its head by using lists that feature no, or very few, transports and a few dreadnoughts that have 48' range. Now my opponent has a difficult choice, does he move his attack bikes within 24' to shoot his multi-meltas only to kill 1-2 guys (as opposed to a Land Raider or other expensive vehicle) and get annhiliated by the return fire or does he not use 150 pts of his army. Melta vets are another great example of something that shines in a typical game but loses its luster when its pitted against foot-slogging GK's.

In all honesty I think GK's are what Tyranids should have been, an army that shakes up the meta to the point where people start adjusting their all-comers lists to better handle the potential match-up. Is that a bad thing or does it mean that Matt Ward, as unlikely as this seems, actually knew what he was doing...

miv305 wrote:@Tim - I see what you're saying now about the fluffy claim, although that wasn't my intent and I apologize if that's how it's coming across. I didn't mean to imply that I'm awesome and can beat good lists with bad ones! I also don't mean to equate fluffy with non-optimized (and clearly have used the word 'optimized' in the wrong fashion during my previous posts), as I think my footslogging list is optimized at what it does, it's just not a Crowe/Coteaz combo monster.

Thank you! As was mentioned last night (Mike and I took our 'heated' debate to the PM's into the wee hours of the morning) that's how I read/felt you were coming across. Although my posts make me look like a big baby

As well, one of the things we discussed was me quitting playing guard. It was for the exact same reason Robyn has mentioned here. My mech guard was completely auto-pilot and I didn't fear a single army or build. I started to lose interest and not feel good about putting my army on the table. I won't say I won every game (I honestly don't remember), but I sure won a lot more than I lost. I tried ideas about new lists and builds, however, it was kind of already over for me.

And to note: Mike and I still laugh about the team tourny, where we teamed up SW and Guard (probably because we're evil!). Now that was overpowered and broken!

I am annoyed by them but not a lot since I have never played a game against GK outside of Vassal. I have played them twice on there, and have gone 0-1 with Orks and 1-0 with Tyranids, believe it or not.

GK to me are just another power army. They come out with a shiny new book that GW is using as a marketing scheme to make money by powering up the latest book (with Tyranids and Necrons as exceptions) to make it the new power army. People flock to the army so they can have the new shiny (no GK comment intended) troops with the awesome deathstar unit.

Most players will say 'I didn't choose this army because it's powerful' but I think that's a lie over 50% of the time. No comment on any individuals, as I don't know their specific motives.

It's funny in this thread, 3 times (including one by me) people have mentioned Tyranids as a weak army. They are and they aren't. They're just unique enough that anti-MEQ lists don't do as well against them as they should, and with a fully optimized list, they can win. For a 'weak' army, they win a lot of tournaments. Just not in Saskatoon.

As far as being overpowered, a fully cheesed out GK army is near impossible to beat but normal 'fluffy' lists are beatable but usually an uphill battle.

I am also not avoiding GK lists in this league. Just haven't come across one yet.

Well, playing grey knights.. I wouldnt really be worried about another grey knights army personally. I think a heavy vehicle guard or dark eldar army would be tough to deal with. I played a tank heavy blood angels list with a land raider, 3 vindicators, a predator and a dreadnought. I had the dread and a unit of henchmen with 3 melta guns.. but the rest of the anti tank had to come from psycannons... it was a bit tough.. I stunned alot on the first few turns.. but by the 4th turn things were finally getting removed.

I think whats most annoying about the grey knight book is that there just isn't one tough unit or thing to deal with. It seems that the Grey Knights have quite a few units that I could see opponents groaning about.

Unit of paladins with various equipment.. ugh.
Techmarine/Grandmaster/Brother captain with grenades.. sigh.
Psyfleman dread.. ech.
Draigo.. eww!
Death Cult assassins.. annoying!

It just seems to me that after playing them for a bit now, I feel guilt to a degree while playing them. Like when I have to explain what psycho grenades do.. and then what rad grenades do on top of that.. and then that the 4 Death cult assassins get 16 power attacks at ws 5 and init 5(6?).. then the crusaders get 8 power attacks.. the techmarine gets 3 himself with another 2 power fist attacks.. oh, and since they assaulted out of the land raider.. they have frag grenades. I think Ive said sorry twice after launching that assault.. becasue it was so much overkill. I actually had 2 assassins, 2 crusaders and the tech marine hit a squad of 30 boyz.. after the shooting from the techmarine finished and the assault finished, they were wiped out and I lost one crusader back...

That being said, the necron book seems to have alot of the same tricksy type of things.. I can say I would have no problem bringing a list I thought was good to play necrons.. but I would feel really bad to bring that same list play against Orks. I wonder if alot of it has to do with playing an army that is a bit overpowered right now. Ive never had that option before.. everything was pretty run of the mill for a long time with me..

I will say though that I think Im going to shelf the psycho grenades for now.. just a personal choice. I wouldnt have any problems playing against them.. I just feel really bad using them for some reason. Im keeping the rad grenades though.. For me they seem like they're the root for my problems. I have no problem at all with other people using them.. but Ill hang em up for now and see what happens. It'll make my hq choices a bit better to manage as well.

Ill save this one disclaimer though.. if I make it into the playoffs... you might see them come out on an HQ choice. No fooling around in the playoffs!

I will say though.. I really, really hope they dont do the same thing to chaos and go a bit overboard. I like what they did the necrons.. and besides the canoptek scarabs and the mindshackle scarabs being a tiny bit annoying.. everything else is great. Actually. its not even annoying as much as scary.. The mindshackle failed I believe 2 if not 3 of the turns Paz tried to use them.. but it would of been a pain if they worked. In the end though.. its not as bad because its still yourself making the roll.. The canop scarabs are as much annoying as they are scary.. but at the same time can take a bunch of damage if you have the right equipment.

After reading this I'm starting to think I cant play my GK list. EVEN THOUGH I HAVE BEEN PAINT THEM FOR A YEAR NOW.... I guess I'm a power jumper... And I've been hoping to field my 2k list (FOR THE FIRST TIME), later this month. And yes I got a 10 man pimped out termy squad with a GM. I've spent 6 months working out lists and fine tuning. Studying tactics for the squads I have enlisted. I've been a Vanilla Marine guy for six long brutal years. And I finally find a codex I think has finally got a chance of a good fight, and not relying on your opponents bad rolling.
If any thing I think we can all agree that the new codex's have been getting powered up. With the Necrons I've been noticing a tactic were you give your opponent night fighting for 2 turns. Charge there vehicles with 2 squads of 5 scarab bases, and then clean things up with warrior shooting and Lychguard assaults. Powered wouldn't you say???
Now even I would hate to have to deal with that. I guess another point is that ya there are power gamers out there. We all know who they are... But for those of us who have invested the time and the money to play GK deserve a good game, Win or Loss. Yes GK lose YouTube "GreyKights Battle report" there are lots of GK lists and tactics that get utterly crush by necrons, Orks. And yes most Eldar play with gk's like a puppet on a string.
When I first started playing again I got tabled 4 times in a row. And them lost another five or six to bad positioning and tactics. So if you get crushed a game or two, and then complain, about it I have no simpithy for ya. Looking back and learning "should da could da" is all you can do. And no Gluvzer I don't mean to single you out. This chat has existed for years when experienced players have a bad day or when power gamers think they are tactical geneses.

ps: since the course of writing this I have had to put my little cuttie back to bed 3 times. So I am not nearly up set any more. lol I strongly hope no one takes offense to this post. I have put alot of time and effort into my new Grey Knights and If people don't battle me I hope its cause I look like a ugly cattle man and not because of my grey knights.

James,

No comment on the cattleman thing. You said it, not me.

You own a GK army? Then play it. If people complain, that's their problem, not yours. Maybe a few people will dodge you, but most will not. I, for one, will not dodge you, and neither will Gluvzer, Lore Weaver, and many others.

I would strongly disagree about Necrons being overpowered, especially after I tabled a Necron army in 3 rounds with those very things you mentioned. Warriors, Lychgaurd, Scarab Swarms, and that solar pulse or whatever to give me and only me night fighting. Good generals find ways to win battles. Kudos to you for not giving up, and maybe your winning ways will return to you.

I agree with others that Eldar do better than average against Gk, and Dark Eldar do the best. Imperial Guard could do well, as could Necrons, depending on build. Tau has potential too, with a good general and list. Orks....um.....no. I do not like that matchup.

I only play once a week due to family obligations and time constraints, so next week is the tournament. If you wish to have a game the week after the tourney, I would play you with either my Orks or Tyranids. Both, in my opinion, do not perform well against GK, but I have to learn to deal with them sooner or later.

James, Necrons are absolutely not overpowered. I still think people are putting the book through its paces and it is probably a little too early to tell. I suspect it will settle somewhere into the middle tier right next to good old vanilla marines. Not bad, but not great. With a little luck and a few good matchups, could even win a tourney here or there.

I'd have to agree with Scott regarding the GK/Ork match up. Not good for Orks. At all. Even if the Knights don't bring Purifiers. Eldar, maybe once they get a new codex. DE I think is bad too, but others disagree. Certainly they would have the best chance of these 3 armies (in a non-KP scenario).

As for you not being able to get games, don't worry about it. All of the players (myself included) relish the challenge of playing against Grey Knights. It forces us to be on our games and will definitely push us further. I always learn more from defeats than victories and while they sting initially, I relish them later because of the clarity they bring. Like I said before, my beef is with Matt Ward, not Grey Knight players. I know and respect all of the local Grey Knight players and when they win they are more than likely full value for the victory. I've won lots of games I shouldn't have for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes I roll better, sometimes my opponent makes one more mistake than I did, sometimes my army list matches up really well versus his list when I didn't know what he was bringing. We've all had that experience and Grey Knights just adds one more possible reason to that list. However when you are on your game, rolling average, and making all the right moves you know it. That's when wins feel the best whatever army you're playing.

Commander James of the Ul wrote:. And them lost another five or six to bad positioning and tactics. So if you get crushed a game or two, and then complain, about it I have no simpithy for ya. Looking back and learning "should da could da" is all you can do. And no Gluvzer I don't mean to single you out. This chat has existed for years when experienced players have a bad day or when power gamers think they are tactical geneses.

Nicely done "I don't mean to single you out, but I'll single you out". Don't really know what to say. I'm pretty sure I posted that I'll play against GK's anytime and that everyone should keep playing them if they want to.....

Most of YOUR posts on this forum are complaints. And I have no "simpithy" for you either.

Commander James of the Ul wrote:This chat has existed for years when experienced players have a bad day or when power gamers think they are tactical geneses.

Well, I'm glad it's in perspective now.....?


Sigh, isn't this thread over yet?