tailoring the list to your opponent

I got to the party a bit late, but I feel the need to share my views. They're fairly straightforward(IMO), and I apologize if anybody thinks its rude.

Firstly, a disclaimer - I'm not directing this at Ben(as I don't think what he's referring to is bad) or indeed anybody in particular. When I think of List Tailoring, I imagine people who design their entire list(or at least the majority) around what they know of their opponent. A little tailoring is natural. I tend to change my list a bit every week, but it's when the fundamentals change that it gets to be Tailoring (IE all plasma guns one week to fight the foot-slogging marines, All Melta the next for those Mech Guard, and then bring nothing but flamers and ordnance vs the green tide)

So, here it is:
I believe that if you feel you NEED to change your list to face a particular opponent, then either your list wasn't good enough in the first place, or you need to become a better general.

Tailoring allready shows that your main goal is Victory rather than fun(And yes, I know Victory IS fun, but a game should be fun for ALL parties, not just the victor), so if you're main goal is victory ANYWAYS, you should have an army capable of achieving it without having to be altered for every match.


Bringing a gun to a knife fight might be a way to win, but that's a fight, not a game. It's not sportsmanlike, which is one of the major aspects I think makes for a good game of warhammer. Just bring a bigger knife, and know how to use it.

I think that, for some reason, you're trying to tell me that cheating is only bad if it's for an advantage?

That's exactly what i'm trying to say. However, you are right that the actual definition of cheating is to violate the rules of a game so its not necesarily for an advantage. But i have to say that list tailoring isn't violating any rules of the game. There is no rule for building an army aside from the limits of your codex. This side of my argument is to convince you that list tailoring is not cheating, but a 'metagame' that is likey upsetting your opponent.

Also alex, i agree with you that a list should be strong enough to fight whoever you may be up against. I usually never change my list from week to week, unless i have some crazy idea that i want to try out. Other than that, minor tweaks if i didn't like how something performed. i always try to take a mix of various weapons to combat all types. I want enough weapons to deal with vehicles/MC and then lots of anti-inf weapons as that usually a bulk of any army.
We are not so different, you and i, in our gaming philosophy. I argue the other point because i don't think tailoring your list is cheating, just upsets the opponent, who, in turn, should not be upset because if he has a balanced list and is a decent general should be able to defeat that tailored list anyway. (that's what you argue as well).

bensutherland333 wrote:What i was planning on doing was replacing 2 railguns with 2 ion cannons because i know i am facing cadians chaos witch are foot slogging.

You do know the hammerhead has two fire modes, right?

i see it this way: if I was to say, copy a list from someone called... i don't know, Stelek for instance, one that he has tested, to wipe out most comers, to take all the bestest advantages of the army, and make redundancies of that... well, that's as much cheating as tailoring a list.
Alex, one a few occasions now, I have seen you respond to different "powerful" builds with a unit combo to beat it. So are you saying you do list tailor? Or don't? Because a balanced army will get wasted 90% of the time by a dual lash oblits plague marine list, or a guard leaf-blower list.
Greg is trying to play devil's advocate here for the tuff league. I know he doesn't like list tailoring at all, and would frown on it if he faced someone who did.
Jim would be the decider here. If he, as runner of the tough league doesn't like list tailoring, he can police anyone who is doing it. Taking a few ionheads to face marines is minor, but if one were to change all units to face marines, that would be cheating.
If someone tailors a list like the above example for fluff league, either Robyn or myself will speak to them. It ain't cool, and shouldn't happen. You should tell someone they are facing, say, orks, so they can prepare, but if they bring all flamers and large blast weapons, you can call them out for list tailoring.

if I was to say, copy a list from someone called... i don't know, Stelek for instance, one that he has tested, to wipe out most comers, to take all the bestest advantages of the army, and make redundancies of that... well, that's as much cheating as tailoring a list.

I don't see it as cheating, many of the lists I've used that are "his" I've reached on my own conclusion. My necrons, for example, were very close to "his" necrons and I made changes that I thought were for the better based on what I saw. even then, I changed it further to incorporate what I wanted...

If taking other's advice or lists on list building is cheating, well by golly, then we shouldn't have the Best of the best or Army lists forums, 'cause that's just a gaggle of cheating. Oh, and no one discuss tactics either... if it's not yours, you're a cheater!

As long as credit is given where credit is due, I see nothing wrong with it. I believe I've done so for the lists I post that aren't mine, and don't say so when I come up with it myself.

Alex, one a few occasions now, I have seen you respond to different "powerful" builds with a unit combo to beat it. So are you saying you do list tailor? Or don't? Because a balanced army will get wasted 90% of the time by a dual lash oblits plague marine list, or a guard leaf-blower list.

most of the time I try to post examples of good lists that counter "powerful" (or whatever) builds... which means they aren't that powerful, are they?

hmm, a fundamental difference in our trains of thought revealed... I think a balanced list should be able to beat those two examples you listed, mostly because they're bad lists to begin with...

Would those same lists that beat the "not so powerful" lists be as useful against everyone else? Should I spend the extra points on a counter unit in an all comers tournament, "in case" I face these armies? That's not how you've stated it in the past. I can look up your old posts in you reeeallly want me to, but I think we both know you have espoused taking certain units against certain enemies. That is tailoring.

Ok so first of all thank you for all the input guys, what have gotten out of this is that i can tailor my list but it shows that all i want is victory and the game will be less fun, and the whole point of 40k is to have fun i would not want someone to tailor against me so i will not list tailor. thank you again this has been very beneficial to me.

You'd have to look up old posts, your memory is apparently much better than mine cause I have no idea what you're talking about. lol

When I first came to this league I list tailored every game, I thought it was pretty dumb that you let your opponent know what he was facing in advance because it seemed to promote list tailoring, I even caught =I=censor=I= from people for bringing a different army then I had posted. Couple times it was just easier as I didn't have the snazzy cases I have now but a few times it was legitimately that I didn't want as hard fought game as it would've been for my chaos or tau to win and so I just bought orks. Now if there was no list tailoring at all no one would be upset by it because "all lists should be balanced" but realistically very few people are prepared in their list to fight everything. My Chaos list is probably one of the most balanced lists I've seen in this league, but it is heavily tailored to fighting vehicles and power armour, because that's the majority of armies. (I also tabled someones nids in 4 turns with this list) The point I'm making is that list tailoring is frowned upon, but every single person here does it to a degree. I'm not saying that people are going to trade in their predator tanks for defilers when they face nids and try and fit every single template weapon they can into a list, but when I face nids all my melta gun toting marines find out they're holding proxied flamers by the chaos magics!

So the list tailoring argument is a power gaming argument, basically if you're in the fluff league don't take a list that is going to ground pound your opponent so hard he takes up playing warmachine because they have cooler beards then us... and because his ass is so sore from the boot thrashing your tailored list gave him that he can't be seen in public near a 40k fig or the tears start coming.

Come on tom i can grow a better beard than those guys.