New Proposal - League Format

System Commander wrote:*shrugs* I didnt realize you guys were playing Mordheim Thu. nights, so completely skip my Thu. suggestion. I was just trying to offer up ideas.

I think maybe what I have to do is step back from running the league completely. I'll stay around and moderate the site in of general discussion, painting, etc. but maybe find someone who can run the game playing portion of the league, moderate the game forum, be a rules arbitrator, etc... I'm just tired..

So, volunteers? Ill try to get someone who has the most experience and can be nice. Once my time frees up, I'll even join.

I'll take over the league!

UGH! Stop making me read this posts. I have FFXIII sitting in my kitchen and I want to go and play it!!!

I honestly have to agree with Paz (God my skin is crawling.)

At this point, I think just about everyone agrees that a split league is the best solution. Two league nights, one for competitive gaming, and one for fluff and casual gaming. I don't think I've really seen an arguement against it that I really buy, other than the fact that the den is oft busy on Thursday and Friday, making the comp league have to scrounge for tables.

I also agree that if Robin is stepping out, that having Paz take over the league is probably the best thing that could happen to it under the circumstances. I don't always agree with Paz (See critical mass thread) but the man knows his fluff and knows his painting. Furthermore, I agree that Jim is pretty much the man for the job in the comp league. He's got a head for numbers, and he knows the rules better than just about anyone.

So my suggested course is as follows:

- A split league, Casual and Competitive. (You can have funny names if you want, but this is what it comes down to!)

- Single league fees, You pay to enter just like now, you can play in one or both.

- Casual is just that. Run by Paz You come, you play, you paint. Try to be nice about your lists, try to have painted models wherever possible. Try not to be too snooty, I know it'll be hard

- Competitive. Run by Jim, Thursdays or Fridays. If its thursdays we give all preference to Mordenhiem players so as not to be jerks! Bring what you've got. If competitive for you means Nob bikers, you can bring them. I personally don't want this to be the jerk half, so golden rule, bring nob bikers onto others as you would wish nob bikers to be brought onto you.

- Personally I'd recommend keeping the forums as they are, and just adding the resources necessary to administrate things (Two thunderdomes, an extra vox thread.) Worst case I'd suggest a sub forum for the Comp league. Keeping it all on one page is pretty much a must in my opinion, just because despite how we want to play the game, its all one league in the end!

- Final match after champions on each side are picked between two. Perhaps the occational tourny where East meets west.

- And my final important point. The league is overseen by the System Commander. He'll be like the Queen, no administrative duties, but I dunno, I just don't see this as hunters without Robyn being at least figuritively in charge. It'd just seem weird!

Thats where my money sits, feel free to argue it. =)

smackman wrote:I just have one thing to say.... 'Ard Boyz League! Being a power gamer doesn't mean you're not interested in fluff and painting, I'm currently painting alot alot of orks right now, but I already have my fluffy chaos painted and my Necrons painted with a custom lord + backstory reflected in the modeling.

I would like to see a second league because, I AM A POWER GAMER! I want to face some of the cheasiest most beardy lists ever dreamt up. My concern is that it's mentally exhausting to play that all the time and I'm not sure that I could play two leagues of it in a row (I won the league with a beardy orks list, then came back and let everyone boot stomp my necrons, I'm bipolar like that I guess) I don't want to see a big rift in the community but I do want a place for people to play power lists because sometimes tabling someone in 3 turns gives you what's missing from writing space marine fan fiction. (Please god don't let me stoop to that level)

I'm not sure what the big deal is about getting labeled as a power gamer and why everyone's so hesitant to say that they want to play in this second league. Seriously, we're all nerds, we're all looked down upon by people who don't play nerdy games at the back of the den. (Except musicians, because I mean seriously... lame )

I don't have a problem with Power Gaming, What I have a problem with is the apparent Extreme view many people seem to have - that Power Gaming is all about Cheesing it up and fighting to win, and that fun/cool stuff takes a back seat. I would not want to be involved in a league that's JUST about being as cheesy as possible.

- Split League -

I pretty much agree with everything Adam said, but I'll reiterate some of the points that are important to me in my own words.

Assuming we're doing a second League, I would be both capable and willing to run it, most likely alongside Adam(Caros). I know the rules relatively well, I can handle people who get out of hand firmly yet tactfully, I'm decent at organizing and great at number-keeping (Also so modest. ). And I'm sure there's others who'd be able to help out.
I don't have much recent experience with running a website, so I'd either need some technical help or someone to re-educate me, though I don't see why (If it's ok with Lexmechanic/Robyn) we can't share the same site and split the modding duties. Add a couple more forum sections for the more competetive stuff, and promote someone to moderate them. It would be suggested that people who have very vocal opinions in opposition to the other league members avoid each others threads, but I think that if the Mods just make sure they tell people "Hey you're being Obtuse, settle down or be suspended for a week", it should be civil.

If anybody disagrees with anything I've said or with me/Adam running this new 'competetive league', please speak your mind.

I would very much agree with Paz leading the Hunters league with a more Artsy/fluffy/casual based gamestyle while Adam and I run a Competetive branch. I also support crossover - I see no reason why someone with both the time and inclination to be involved in both shouldn't be able to do so, provided that person can get along with the 'majority personality' of both leagues.

Speaking of Time, I spoke to Darren at the Den today, he said Fridays are board nights and Thursdays (As has been mentioned here) has some mordheim guys. He said he's pretty much empty during afternoons, and that he would suggest Thursdays over Fridays, but that either would be acceptable provided we're not taking up too much space. He did express concern that he doesn't want Warhammer taking over the back EVERY night, so we'd want to pick one or the other.
My estimation would be that we could get all of the tables during afternoons for those who like showing up early, and probably 4 or 5 during the evening (I don't think unless they grow significantly either Mordheim or Board Games are going to take more than 3 tables, and if they do, we'll back off and find a solution to it when it happens.)

I'll post up a poll asking which night you guys think is best (Whether its what's better for you personally or what you think would be best for the gaming community). I'd appreciate input whether you plan on participating or not, as you're still all members of the Den/gaming community.

caros wrote: And my final important point. The league is overseen by the System Commander. He'll be like the Queen, no administrative duties, but I dunno, I just don't see this as hunters without Robin being at least figuritively in charge. It'd just seem weird!

I would agree whole-heartedly with this. From what I understand (granted I've only been around for ~9 ,months, so may have my facts wrong. If so, please correct me), Robyn pretty much built this league up. I'd hate to see him just step aside. Even if the actual duties and day-to-day is taken over by others, he should still remain nominally in charge, especially as someone I think ALL of us respect. Long Live the King.

We just need to make sure that we have some sort of standardized scoring system. That way if people re allowed to league hop we have a way of making sure it counts for them in the end. Or would it just be easier to run that 'If you league hop, you do so for fun, not points'?

Also, I am willing to help as much as I can with the league. I have obvious work commitments, but I would still like to help if my help is needed. Just let me know. I am generally good with words, and the occasional brow-beating.

Adam, I also have Final Fantasy 13 sitting at home. I, however, am stuck at work for another few hours. All i can say to that is...)&()*&*()&)&*()&*(!!!!!!

Agreed on robyn (side note, is it byn or bin? I've seen both here) as the grand poobah, the man is certainly more level-headed than most and has proven his leadership (to me at least).

*Just FYI, the 'what day's better' post is up in general discussion.

i think Robyn should be the system commander, but paz and jim are his"lietenants" if you will, because of our size it is appropriot to divide it into subsections, but incase jim or paz step out of line robyn will be there to put them back into shape. Also i think it is apropriote to change pazes and jims titles.

you can't make anyone play anyone, ben. Some people rely on the advice of their friends on assessment of people and if someone blew it one night then they likely lost the chance to meet/socialize with others of that group.

Caros wrote:UGH! Stop making me read this posts. I have FFXIII sitting in my kitchen and I want to go and play it!!!

ZOMG! I want that game! now.....i just need some money.

Veyure wrote:you can't make anyone play anyone, ben. Some people rely on the advice of their friends on assessment of people and if someone blew it one night then they likely lost the chance to meet/socialize with others of that group.

good point

I was under the assumption that the new sub-league would be booted from Wednesday. Hearing that this is not the case is relieving

Just thought I'd add in my thoughts. I'm fairly new, and have only been down a couple nights and I don't really know anyone out there. I love the idea of fluff and tough leagues, with the ability to intermingle, and in all honesty I just want to be able to play regular games and get to know some of the other gamers in this city, since I'm not from here and don't have any friends playing GW games anymore. I'm currently playing an IG mech list, which is quite overpowering when playing someone who is not expecting it (sorry paz and holy cause! I felt bad putting my army down). I just want to play as many games as possible, and the possibility of potentially spilling over into other nights would certainly allow me to get more games in (school til 4 every day ftl!).

yvan wrote:Just thought I'd add in my thoughts. I'm fairly new, and have only been down a couple nights and I don't really know anyone out there. I love the idea of fluff and tough leagues, with the ability to intermingle, and in all honesty I just want to be able to play regular games and get to know some of the other gamers in this city, since I'm not from here and don't have any friends playing GW games anymore. I'm currently playing an IG mech list, which is quite overpowering when playing someone who is not expecting it (sorry paz and holy cause! I felt bad putting my army down). I just want to play as many games as possible, and the possibility of potentially spilling over into other nights would certainly allow me to get more games in (school til 4 every day ftl!).

Yeah, my mech list wasn't too fondly received, but even I have to admit it was a might cheesy.. I think it was a dozen vehicles with no infantry showing. I only played it for a few games before switching to something a bit more fun.
I still run a fairly armoured list, but it's more mixed now - my inquisition army is 6 tanks 60 infantry.

*EDIT: Also, if Holycause(AKA Alex, AKA 'that guy!') was one'a the ones not expecting it then I tsk at him. He's faced me often enough to know better. Heck, I think he's onea the ones who's BEAT the mechs.. AND managed a draw with NECRONS!!!
Er.. no offense meant to necron players, and rant now done.

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Anyways, back to the main topic - If Wednesdays are still available to both 'leagues', that would be great, and we could use Fridays as the 'off night' or spillover night for those who don't get their games scheduled for wednesday - or who just can't make it on wednesdays.

Terran wrote:We just need to make sure that we have some sort of standardized scoring system. That way if people re allowed to league hop we have a way of making sure it counts for them in the end. Or would it just be easier to run that 'If you league hop, you do so for fun, not points'?

I think the best way to handle this would be you can be involved in both, but you only earn points dependant on what league your opponent is in. EX : You could play a competetive game against Alex, gaining some points for the competetive league, then face Paz in a casual game, gaining points for that league.

It would also be highly advisable to be using an army appropriate to the league you're participating in.

The leagues would obviously have different scorekeeping and finals, and We'd have to make sure tournaments/finals weren't hosted on the same day for both leagues, to allow for people to participate fully.. Adam and I will work up something for the competetive league, the main question being how soon do we want to perform this split.

A few other questions, mostly directed at da big guyz(Lexmechanic, Paz, Robyn), but everyone should feel free to voice their opinions:
League fees - I'd suggest the two leagues be payed seperately, in order to keep prizes in line (If 4 people join one league and 12 join the other, it would be unfair to those 12 if the prize money were split 50/50 between the leagues). The downside to this would be that anybody wanting to participate in both would likely end up having to pay two fees, which is discouraging... I'm open to suggestions.

Forums - I'd still like to hear whether you guys think seperate websites are required, or if we can just make a couple changes and keep it all in one place.

League Night Priority - If both leagues are going to be using the den on Wednesdays, how do we decide which gets priorty? First to post dibs? I'd suggest having 2 tables 'reserved' for each branch, and having the others open.

bensutherland333 wrote:i think Robyn should be the system commander, but paz and jim are his"lietenants" if you will, because of our size it is appropriot to divide it into subsections, but incase jim or paz step out of line robyn will be there to put them back into shape. Also i think it is apropriote to change pazes and jims titles.

My thoughts on the matter exactly.

at $5 a pop the league fee's aren't exactly overwhelming.

aye, what jim said. I have no experience against fully mech guard with my marines, that game was a solid matchup of lists and one needed tactics to win. coincidentally I suck at tactics

I had expected you to go after my raiders (like everyone does) and have the lascannons bounce off (yanno it's like a 5% chance per lascannon to destroy a raider, lol) so destroying my speeders first turn was an unexpected and crippling blow.

and jim, that tie with my necrons was more scenario fail than anything. spearhead + 2 objectives = the draw mission.


hijack over.

at $5 a pop the league fee's aren't exactly overwhelming.

Aye, and the discount on loot at the den makes it more than worth it.

HolyCause wrote:aye, what jim said. I have no experience against fully mech guard with my marines, that game was a solid matchup of lists and one needed tactics to win. coincidentally I suck at tactics

I had expected you to go after my raiders (like everyone does) and have the lascannons bounce off (yanno it's like a 5% chance per lascannon to destroy a raider, lol) so destroying my speeders first turn was an unexpected and crippling blow.
.

To be fair, I got pretty luck immobilizing one of your raiders on the first durn with a demolisher shot. Would have been a very different game if that squad of termies didn't have to wait an extra turn to spank some tanks. I know better than to waste lascannon shots on landraiders when I have meltaguns, and ordnance, that hasn't changed since my last days of playing.

As far as my lists go, and as you can see from the IG build i put together, I tend to make very competitive lists. I try to stay away from total cheese (i dont spam meltavets for example, I actually have a mechanized platoon!), but I do love playing a hard list and fighting similar lists. My initial list for any army tends to be very competitve, followed up by fluffly and more "fun" units, rather than pure effieciency. As it is, I'm barely pushing 2k points fielding every model I have, so until I get the nerve to paint up another 50 or so guardsmen (hard after painting about 70), mech it is! Don't hold it against me.

I started building an eldar army this week too. Damn GW and their plastic crack! That list will actually be less competitive, as I love harlequins, and they are fairly expensive. Then again, who knows how that will turn out. I've started with about 500 points and will be focusing more on painting with this army, while I fine tune my IG skills. The eldar would be great it went to an escalation league though

ok have we reached a consensus can someone summerize what happened and what is set in stone?

also i tend to suck against guard with my csm though, i tend to own nids, randy

edit also maybe it should be plus 1 for half painted plus 2 for fully painted i think painting should be more of a factor in the leauge

also are we going to have 2 minimum games a week?

I imagine a lot of these questions will be discussed at the Den today. At least, that's what I'm planning on, since jimmy boy will be there.

as an aside.. ben, do ya have any plastic storm shields?

HolyCause wrote:I imagine a lot of these questions will be discussed at the Den today. At least, that's what I'm planning on, since jimmy boy will be there.

as an aside.. ben, do ya have any plastic storm shields?

haha you really think gw gave stormshields to csm hell no, just like they screwed us on the landraider

Wow look what happens when I don't get to check the boards regularly for a few days. 2 seperate but still intermingled leagues? While personally I didn't approve at first some good arguments were raised and I'm starting to see the light. I am a fluff gamer and will always be one. The modeling and the playing for me is just secondary to being able to cool down from my other life after a hard stretch. I just happened to choose 40k as my vice, (along with clay shooting and self defence training).The bigest problem for me will be priority for space at the den. Tables get taken up fast on some nights and if I dont get to schedule a game here I usually dont bother to show up unless I can get there early. With the 2 league format I agree that different nights should be used for fluff or tuff gaming with crossovers on either day. Hopefully this will have the effect of putting less pressure on the tables and more chances for walk in and unscheduled games.

As for league points yes painted armies could get a bonus if they want but my oppinon on this is why? It do look good but has no effect on gameplay or tactics. And what constitutes "painted" in the league? 3 colors randomly sprayed on the model or someone who makes an effort to make the model look good regardless of skill, number of colors, type of paint of finished look. I would be ok with just a door prize taken form the list of people playing fully painted armies and mabe another for sportsmanship and/or gameplay.

Finally I love the idea of an escallation league. A good idea is that people would have to keep the units from the previous list into the next one only changing thing like weapons or number of models to get points for the new units.

Aww, you can have mine if you want Robyn. Low low price of $1000.

^_^