Ugh...

Guest Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:53 pm

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/03/40k-tactics-winning-with-eldar-foot.html

Please, someone run this =I=censor=I= locally. I want to see it tabled against half of the armies we use.

And take pictures, for battle reports. Send them to this reecius moron, explaining to him why his army list sucks so bad and why he's a !@#$ing embarrassment to this hobby that he claims stuff like this is competitive and that he's "undefeated" with it.

Sorry, nerd rage off. Had to vent, lol.

But now for the real question... does anyone here actually take BoLS "tactics" seriously? Or am I just overreacting again, lol.

Guest Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:32 pm

were u playing space wolves right behind me today i cant but names/faces to the forum names

Paz Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:42 pm

That was quite the Nerd rage. Now prepare for more. I disagree, this guy has a good point. Here's why.

He's right about the Eldar 5th ed. change to vehicles. Falcons are still good, but not OTT. I actually played foot eldar at the end of 4th, and I must say, it did quite well.
The author did say that guard artillery heavy lists is a weakness, which is correct, but against a lot of other armies, this list is effective. It is also really boring to play. My win ratio with Eldar in 4th was like, 85% with footie eldar guardian forces with backup wraithlords, hence why I dropped it for daemons: One tactic, usual win, boring games and uninterested opponents. So It is pretty powerful, super unfluffy, and can work.
I understand your frustration with his "I win all the time" statement, but I think he was trying to illustrate that you can be competitive with Eldar these days.

I don't actually read BoLS lists, but then again, why would you need to copy someone else's list? Its about trial and error, learn what is best, then use it. Neutral

Not rocket science.

I must say though, what is your rage stemming from? You are one of the players who support powerful builds, are you mad because BoLS is giving credence to this person's list, something you find reprehensible? Do you think it is cheesy? Or just really bad? Have you ever played against foot eldar before?

ice Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:08 am

Having also played an Eldar list that foot slogged, I tend to agree with Paz's view. although my list was much smaller then paz's (750).
I tend to take some of their stuff seriously, since some of these guys were major GT players in the states, or are good friends with some of the top guys in those GT's

Guest Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:48 am

do bikes count? I just played against Tyson's Eldar Jet-bike army, and it's pretty tough, without any vehicles.

As to taking BOLS tactics seriously, I only read them for fun, I don't really care about what people on the internet say are good/bad tactics.

Guest Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:47 am

Jstone wrote:were u playing space wolves right behind me today i cant but names/faces to the forum names

I was playing a Vulkan Space Marine list against a wonderfully painted guard army... I think maybe you were the other nicely painted one, what with the camo scheme similar to that of what 'eavy metal does? I liked it Smile

I understand your frustration with his "I win all the time" statement, but I think he was trying to illustrate that you can be competitive with Eldar these days.

Eldar are easily one of the stronger armies, after seeing Reegan's stuff last night it put perspective on the entire eldar army if I extrapolate what I saw. I mean, I knew it in theory before, but now it's a stronger one Wink

But... foot eldar armies? They negate two of the eldar's strongest abilities: mobility, and super annoying as hell vehicles to kill. A foot list simply eats templates and flamers up the ying-yang, and dies to any sort of mass shooting. T3 isn't super durable.

And yeah, anyone who waves their e-peen around saying how awesome and undefeated they are... I'm an egotistical ass to an extent and even I admit when I suck Smile

Being undefeated doesn't prove how good you are, it proves how crappy the competition is. Yet he treats it as though it's the former, especially with a list that guard (or any mech list really) would have a field day with.

why would you need to copy someone else's list? Its about trial and error, learn what is best, then use it.

True, but sometimes it's about finding out the magic behind a list, especially one that you don't particularly understand. I basically copied stelek's necrons and made a few changes, but that hasn't lessened the fun out of trying to learn how to use the army well. Granted, I do agree with your sentiment, and the thing wouldn't be as fun if I hadn't made some changes Smile

I must say though, what is your rage stemming from? You are one of the players who support powerful builds, are you mad because BoLS is giving credence to this person's list, something you find reprehensible? [...] Or just really bad?

I didn't read the article; only the comments. And the comments are just painful.

It's really annoying when someone ignores a pretty good breakdown of why their list doesn't work. He claims to use bubble wrap (which is good) but... it's not very effective (which is bad). Why? Well, his uber anti-tank options (sarcasm) won't stop a couple Land Raiders tank shocking through his elves and dumping terminators in his face. He hasn't addressed the two (three, if my comment registered, lol) people who called him out on that, just a "ignore the naysayers, I have found the second coming of christ!"

Gonna quote a dude somewhere, he says it much better than I would in the space of sane time, lol.

Yeah, i got no problem with BOLS news and rumors, and as a role player i have no problem with narritive gaming with the right group of people.

Its just that, with the exception of Goatboy and Fritz, their tactical articled tend to be very sub par. As the pre-eminent english speaking 40k website, they have a responsibility to not give advice like this. When noobs take bad advice, not only do they not grow as players, they can be driven from the hobby as their investment in a bad list bites them in the ass.

This isn't just poor, it's irresponsible.

Have you ever played against foot eldar before?

yes, wasn't impressed. every time. I was when it was 4th edition, but not in 5th. When my necrons can out-maneuver Eldar there's something very wrong, lol. haven't done it with my marines, although I sure hope someone comes out on my challenge and fields this crap...

just grinds my gears when people smear this level of stupidity and prop it up as greatness.

Veyure Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:04 am

If you read the article he lays out some pretty clear tactical use for his units. only reading the comments never gives a clear idea of what is being said. The foot eldar list is not terrible. and i also think that BoLS does put out some decent tactical advice. I wouldn't use the list builds they provide more for my own reasons than i don't think they're good, which some can be.
The articles they put out giving suggestions on how to think about metagame and how lesser used units could be used.

I think it's poor attitudes people have toward someone who may give them some grief about what they post. They put out a couple articles a day and maybe not all of them are the most Glorifying ideas, but it's probably tough coming out with something new every day and keep in mind, these guys aren't the jesus of warhammer and cannot forsee the future of how things work out.

The eldar guy had an interesting article using an idea that everyone seems to discount or never try. I think thats good in my eyes even if he is gloating a bit.

System Commander Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:34 am

Yeah, Bell of Lost Souls is a brilliant site for the reason that it puts out new stuff at an amazing rate. They get 2-3 blogs posts up a day, and the site created campaigns and supplements they've produced are unbelievable. I have no problem with them posting up their tactica articles.. you just take what you want from them.

Some are neat, some aren't, but it gives something for the new players to think about. I wouldnt be as intimidated going up against a foot eldar army as I would against a fully or partially mounted one. That being said, once everything was out, I'd have to seriously think about it. Wraithlords are never easy to take down, and three would give me some worry. The worst thing about the Wraithlords is that once they're in hand to hand with marines, marines cant wound them anymore. Everything else though, *shrugs* not sure.. I'd have to play it first. Initially though, I wouldnt be that scared.

But I have ask, why get so riled up? This is their site, they do a ton of good for 40k, more so than anyone else has ever done, but they are constantly get hammered for putting up crappy articles. In the end, its their site.. they can put up anything they want. They dont work for GW, just are big supporters. If they have a few articles you dont like, skip em. They put out so much stuff everyday, they cant be gems all the time... The main problem is they never here form people when they put out something good that people like, but always here about it when peole dont like it.

System Commander Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:01 pm

I have to say though, Im really confused by the post. I thought you were angry about this guy proposing an out of the box type of list, which I think is always a refreshing idea (who want sto fight 4 falcons every game?). However.. you only read the comments and thats why your posting the rant/discussion?

Why get worked up about that? Do I think its the greatest list in the world.. no, but I can appreciate the article for bringing up new ideas. I will never, ever understand why people hop up on forums to only criticize.. its such a waste of productivity and Bell of Lost Souls has been plagued with people hammering them. So the dude said he won with it, and the local events have won a few times, why is that so hard to believe? If you have no proof, you dont have to believe him, I couldnt care either way. But to insult the guy and call him out on a army list he made (not saying you did, I dont what you posted but alot of other people were) .. for doing a non-paid article.. why? I cannot understand it at all.. its so confusing. Sometimes you younger folks confuse me.. maybe its time to retire..

Terran Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:51 pm

The following is an Eldar players comments on the list, and not a criticism of the author. I won't criticize the author simply because this list is not his original invention.

The army list is a deviation from an 'all plastic' list found on the GW web-site. It goes by numerous names on numerous forums: Eldar MC Spam, Wraith Spam, Guardian Spam, etc etc. Having read the list, it does have a lot of flaws. It just eats bullets with no real reliable means of defending itself. It is extremely slow and rigid. Those Lords have to stay within 6 inches of a psyker, or they start taking wraithsight tests. Therefore the core of your army can't range very far before your only real punch starts to suffer. I would say that it does suffer from some anti-tank ability. Lords are great for rhinos and such, but once you are in AV 12+ territory, I would start taking the Dragons.

It also won't run, because the way he seems to run it everything is Fearless (12" of the Avatar). With that many DA's and Guardians, that is a genuinely bad idea. A better way to run it would be to keep the Guardians and DA's out of Fearless range. They likely won't break from shooting, as Eldar are fairly high LD anyway. In an assault, however, it allows you to prevent Fearless wounds which would likely mince the remainders of the squad. So those Guardians lose the combat by, say, 4-5 wounds. That is 4-5 additional saves to make on 5+. A squad of 20 starts thinning down pretty quickly with those odds. Whereas if they remain breakable, then they can flee the combat just to re-consolidate (by moving into the Fearless bubble) within a nice shooting range of the opponent.

Over-all, it is a gimmicky list that relies on your opponent being totally terrified of your wraithlords. However, if you play a half-savvy opponent, they will quickly realize that they can usually tear its heart out (I.e., all those scoring troops) with minimal effort while only taking minor damage in return.

These are just my thoughts, for anyone who may give a damn. Wink

Personally, I will keep my tanks and speeder-punching Scorpions.

System Commander Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:40 pm

Im not sure where your comments start or end, first and last line yours?

Anyway, I guess the point Im trying to make is I dont understand why everyone gets so riled up about this stuff. Who really cares that some guy posted a list up.. there are millions of lists up there. Is the problem the list is bad or is everyone offended because he wrote an article for Bols.. If you don't like it, cool.. dont use it. .. but why go through the energy, stress and effort to net slam someone.. I seriously just dont get it..

Someone really has to explain it to me.. I honest to goodness dont understand. I dont want to believe there are that many dicks out there waiting for people to post 40K stuff to flame them.. but maybe there is.. ?

HiveMindRuik Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:59 pm

System Commander wrote:Im not sure where your comments start or end, first and last line yours?

Anyway, I guess the point Im trying to make is I dont understand why everyone gets so riled up about this stuff. Who really cares that some guy posted a list up.. there are millions of lists up there. Is the problem the list is bad or is everyone casue he wrote an article for Bols.. If you don't like it, cool.. dont use it. .. but why go through the energy, stress and effort to net slam someone.. I seriously just dont get it..

Someone really has to explain it to me.. I honest to goodness dont understand. I dont want to believe there are that many dicks out there waiting for people to post 40K stuff to flame them.. but maybe there is.. ?

Commander dont let it bother you too much everyone has their own opinion and apparently alot of them dont like to hear about lists that are not their own or they are about to play. Its just the nature of people to =I=censor=I= about this stuff and is not worth the brain power to worry about

System Commander Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:06 pm

This would never bother me normally.. Id come across the article on BOLS, read it, browse the comments, and never think twice about it.

The only reason it becomes relevant though is when it pops up on here.

Lets say someone was thinking about making a foot slogging army but was fairly new to the game. They're getting to ready to post a list for some advice, and they come across this? One of our guys ranting about how =I=censor=I= and horrible the list, tabling, etc. etc. Why the hell would that person want to post his list for advice now.. or even post period.

HiveMindRuik Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:22 pm

System Commander wrote:This would never bother me normally.. Id come across the article on BOLS, read it, browse the comments, and never think twice about it.

The only reason it becomes relevant though is when it pops up on here.

Lets say someone was thinking about making a foot slogging army but was fairly new to the game. They're getting to ready to post a list for some advice, and they come across this? One of our guys ranting about how =I=censor=I= and horrible the list, tabling, etc. etc. Why the hell would that person want to post his list for advice now.. or even post period.

yes you do have a good point on this.....perhaps from now on there should be a bit more thought should be put into our posts from now on about the subject we are posting on such as in this case holycause should have probably read the article first Razz

or me since ive been drifting in and out of this topic so i may have missed some key points Sad

Guest Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:33 pm

ya im pretty much the newbie of the forums and the club and i have noticed negetive stuff on the forums more than once i dont get it either but whatever

Terran Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:49 am

My actual comments were more a critique about the list itself, for anyone who may want an actual opinion from someone who plays the army. The comments are my own, as I have seen the list before and proxied something similar once (way back in the mists of time, so many Orks...) Personally, I am not the least bit riled up. I just spend a lot of time on other forums reading (and sometimes providing) list advice for the Eldar. I enjoy doing it, and since it popped up here, well, why not?

Hope I didn't offend anyone.

Veyure Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:08 am

You're good Terran. I got that it was your opinion of the list. System Commander is just getting old and the old hamster is slowing down hehe.

Veyure Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:13 am

Information does not need to be game changing or groundshaking to be insightful. Sometimes taking a look at the game from a tried and true, but forgotten angle is all you need to do to add more scalps to your trophy rack! It definitely benefits us all to take a look back once in a while, and see how we can buck the trends. On occasion, it is the obvious that steps up and slaps us in the face for that "Duh!" moment. Today's subject is the mighty Las-cannon.

Jawaballa from BoLS said it well here.

System Commander Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:39 am

Ahh yeah, I see that now. For some reason when I read an Eldar players take on the list, I thought it meant you had quoted someone from the comments section.

My confusion.. yeah, getting old makes alot of things confusing..

So, it's perfectly cool discuss the list, what you like, dont like about it, thats awesome. We do that all the time here when people post army lists.

The best to have started this post out would of been...

"Hey guys, someone over at BOLS has a weird list he's promoting thats causing a big stir.. what do you think about it? "

No insults, you dont alienate anyone, and most of all, you dont look like a jerk.

Cjihad Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:26 pm

System Commander wrote:most of all, you dont look like a jerk.

Guest Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:52 pm

@Reegan, it's also weak because the anti-vehicle is pitifully easy to take care of. A guard army could drop the fire dragons and wraithlords on turn 1. Then you have absolutely no way to stop the 12+ vehicles he's running.

So is anyone willing to try and run this stuff? Someone who thinks this list is strong is looking forward to the results of that... Very Happy

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