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Paz
Guardian Angel
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Apocalypse game wrap-up
System Commander Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:32 am
So, another resounding victory for the forces of the bad guys. Despite the good forces first turn low bid time and the mad scrambling that accompanied it, the forces of bad were able to weather the barrage of ordnance that followed and kept their eyes on the objectives from the beginning of the game and ensured they had most of them covered.
So, as with all of the Apocalypse games I've played or ran, there were some rules problems that came up and game dynamics that came up that I will make sure to correct in the future.
First and foremost, 11 guys playing on one table is a bad bad idea. Now, if we had three tables set-up, that might of been a bit better. The table was cluttered with vehicles, line of sight was rare, and the poor imperial forces were held up. 7 guys on a team can be done, but it definitely needs more time and space for a game that big. 5 hours rushing was not enough. As well, it also throws out ALOT of strategic assest onto the table, more so than is needed. Way, way to many, So many that you can't even really keep track of them and alot of overlaps. Look at Chris' flank marching bikes. They came on next to a disruptor beacon and had the choice to either risk getting shot back across the board or weather some Ap 3 sniper shots. Those that day pass their roll got ambushed on the way in with ap 3 rifles. Then with a few bad dice rolls, his poor bikes were breaking morale all over the place and taking off. With so many models on the table, he was going to have no chance to regroup.
Second, the rules for teams and rules inherent to the individual got mottled down. As well, I believe there was some confusion with deployment for the good guys especially with the 4 minute bid time. Since you guys were rushing so much, there was alot of piling models on the table, etc. which I didn't like to see, but I believe that stemmed from the initial problem of not knowing you had to deploy your forces one player at at a time. There was also some different opinions on abilties affecting different units, etc. which is something that I will definitely iron out for any other big games in the future. From what I saw, with a game that big, there should be no reason why you can't affect your co-armies units and vice versa. In the past I ruled against that, for example the Ork player buying a Big Mek with a custom force field and then standing next to the titan. I was trying to prevent stuff like that from happening. Or the Eldar buying a warlock and guiding the baneblade. In the future I think I'll just do away this and let anything go. The rules themselves should take care of this by saying "friendly models" or "your forces"
All in all though, it's always fun to see that many models and big tanks on the table. Our Apocalypse games should get pretty bloody in the near future, as were already up to 7 super heavies for the club. I myself want to play some lower point Apocalypse games that can be finished in an afternoon. I think I can field a solid 4K chaos list which would be alot of fun. In those smaller games, your strategic assest become a huge factor in the game, unlike in our big one where they got bogged down and even forgot!
Todd, your singled out for forgetting your VORTEX GRENADE instead poting to fight the titan in hand to hand! Msan, one vortex grenade in the middle of that imperial line would of taking out stuff left and right!
Post all comments and criticisms on this thread. At least everyone knows why I limited good side to 2000 points each. I also didn't want to turn away form this game since it was the first in a really long time. Any other games that get arranged in the future will probably be down to 2-3 players per side max. Again, feel free to organize your own Apocalypse games if you want, you'll get league points for them!!
System Commander
So, as with all of the Apocalypse games I've played or ran, there were some rules problems that came up and game dynamics that came up that I will make sure to correct in the future.
First and foremost, 11 guys playing on one table is a bad bad idea. Now, if we had three tables set-up, that might of been a bit better. The table was cluttered with vehicles, line of sight was rare, and the poor imperial forces were held up. 7 guys on a team can be done, but it definitely needs more time and space for a game that big. 5 hours rushing was not enough. As well, it also throws out ALOT of strategic assest onto the table, more so than is needed. Way, way to many, So many that you can't even really keep track of them and alot of overlaps. Look at Chris' flank marching bikes. They came on next to a disruptor beacon and had the choice to either risk getting shot back across the board or weather some Ap 3 sniper shots. Those that day pass their roll got ambushed on the way in with ap 3 rifles. Then with a few bad dice rolls, his poor bikes were breaking morale all over the place and taking off. With so many models on the table, he was going to have no chance to regroup.
Second, the rules for teams and rules inherent to the individual got mottled down. As well, I believe there was some confusion with deployment for the good guys especially with the 4 minute bid time. Since you guys were rushing so much, there was alot of piling models on the table, etc. which I didn't like to see, but I believe that stemmed from the initial problem of not knowing you had to deploy your forces one player at at a time. There was also some different opinions on abilties affecting different units, etc. which is something that I will definitely iron out for any other big games in the future. From what I saw, with a game that big, there should be no reason why you can't affect your co-armies units and vice versa. In the past I ruled against that, for example the Ork player buying a Big Mek with a custom force field and then standing next to the titan. I was trying to prevent stuff like that from happening. Or the Eldar buying a warlock and guiding the baneblade. In the future I think I'll just do away this and let anything go. The rules themselves should take care of this by saying "friendly models" or "your forces"
All in all though, it's always fun to see that many models and big tanks on the table. Our Apocalypse games should get pretty bloody in the near future, as were already up to 7 super heavies for the club. I myself want to play some lower point Apocalypse games that can be finished in an afternoon. I think I can field a solid 4K chaos list which would be alot of fun. In those smaller games, your strategic assest become a huge factor in the game, unlike in our big one where they got bogged down and even forgot!
Todd, your singled out for forgetting your VORTEX GRENADE instead poting to fight the titan in hand to hand! Msan, one vortex grenade in the middle of that imperial line would of taking out stuff left and right!
Post all comments and criticisms on this thread. At least everyone knows why I limited good side to 2000 points each. I also didn't want to turn away form this game since it was the first in a really long time. Any other games that get arranged in the future will probably be down to 2-3 players per side max. Again, feel free to organize your own Apocalypse games if you want, you'll get league points for them!!
System Commander
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Guardian Angel Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:35 pm
I had fun, but TOTALLY agree that 11 people is WAY to many. 2 or 3 per side would be good....
Myself, I would definately be interested in playing lower points value Apoc games.....the 3000 to 4000 point ones. In something like that, having the groups that grant your whole army a strategic asset would become very powerful.....imagine pullin out the Masters of the Chapter in a 2 person game....5 Assest vs. 1....lol.
Other then that, Darren had a good idea yesterday when he was talking about if we ever run two games at the same time, we could try to see if we could figure out a way to have 1 game effect the other in small ways.
Anyway.....that is my 2 cents....
Ryan
Myself, I would definately be interested in playing lower points value Apoc games.....the 3000 to 4000 point ones. In something like that, having the groups that grant your whole army a strategic asset would become very powerful.....imagine pullin out the Masters of the Chapter in a 2 person game....5 Assest vs. 1....lol.
Other then that, Darren had a good idea yesterday when he was talking about if we ever run two games at the same time, we could try to see if we could figure out a way to have 1 game effect the other in small ways.
Anyway.....that is my 2 cents....
Ryan
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Multiple games
System Commander Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:56 pm
There are several ways to run 2+ tables at the same that could effect other tables. Having a strategic asset represented by a telporting pad allowing to move between tables when it's controlled. You could have an objective represented by a computer, and when it gets taken over that player can use flank march or call in an bombarment on the middle table.
There are lots and lots of options and they've done some similar things on battle reports in the past.
The best thing to do would be to pick a date/time sometime in the future. Give people so many months to get their army up to a good standard and to get some objectives in place and then plan for a three table big event.
It's doable and not to hard with some organizing ahead of time.
System Commander
There are lots and lots of options and they've done some similar things on battle reports in the past.
The best thing to do would be to pick a date/time sometime in the future. Give people so many months to get their army up to a good standard and to get some objectives in place and then plan for a three table big event.
It's doable and not to hard with some organizing ahead of time.
System Commander
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Paz Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:11 pm
I had a great time, really fun, there were some muddied bitz for rules and such (cyborks!) and Im pretty sure not all those killer kans and def dreads got the hull down. but in such a huge game, (and for most of us just getting a grasp on the rules) such mistakes are commonplace. Good stuff, but im pretty sure i have vendetta against Cam now! (he killed huge chunks of my army!) I'll post up some pics soon enough, so we all have a strong memory of such an epic game.
ps- lifta droppas have to be the coolest weapon in 40k!
ps- lifta droppas have to be the coolest weapon in 40k!
Paz- Lord of Titan
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Mr Anderson Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:24 pm
Yeah, I agree that that many players is a bad idea. Way too much confusion and yelling. :p I'd love to play in smaller games of Apocalypse, now that we all know what a game is like now.
Also, I think some of the confusion, especially with my poor bikes, was not knowing exactly what strategic assets were in play and when. Like that disruption beacon needing to be declared in the Deployment phase rather than first turn. Hopefully though in the smaller games, the communication between players and teams will sort stuff like that out. ^^
As for linking games together, we could also do something like a pseudo-campaign where the winner (good/bad) from the previous game gets a bonus effect or strategic asset for the next one. Though I don't know how that'd work if two 'bad' or two 'good' players go at it... Hmmm.
Also, I think some of the confusion, especially with my poor bikes, was not knowing exactly what strategic assets were in play and when. Like that disruption beacon needing to be declared in the Deployment phase rather than first turn. Hopefully though in the smaller games, the communication between players and teams will sort stuff like that out. ^^
As for linking games together, we could also do something like a pseudo-campaign where the winner (good/bad) from the previous game gets a bonus effect or strategic asset for the next one. Though I don't know how that'd work if two 'bad' or two 'good' players go at it... Hmmm.
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Disruptor beacon
System Commander Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:12 pm
Yes, I do know that team bad said they were putting out the Disruptor Beacon, but with that many players of course it was probably missed by some.
However, that being said, the disruptor beacon is a declared asset and deployed, so at the very least once you found out that the beacon was there, you could of had the choice to bring your units outside of it's range. After that you would run the risk of the 4+ chance to come in elsewhere. Ambush however is another beast. I dont have my book in front of me, but I believe that is declared when your first using it.
Like I mentiponed at the event, I believe the first game we played saw Andrew's entire army being wiped out by turn 2, and he was playing imperial, and there were no eldar players.
System Commander
However, that being said, the disruptor beacon is a declared asset and deployed, so at the very least once you found out that the beacon was there, you could of had the choice to bring your units outside of it's range. After that you would run the risk of the 4+ chance to come in elsewhere. Ambush however is another beast. I dont have my book in front of me, but I believe that is declared when your first using it.
Like I mentiponed at the event, I believe the first game we played saw Andrew's entire army being wiped out by turn 2, and he was playing imperial, and there were no eldar players.
System Commander
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap up
Guest Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:44 pm
That was one of the best 40k games i have ever played. I had a blast! I was really intimidated by that wall of armored units, of which, most I have never seen before. I thought my dread mob was gonna push all the enemy units off the table with sheer terror. They looked so insignificant facing 20-30 imperial tanks. I learned the necessity of being thoroughly organized for this level of play. Most importantly, to have my models display only what they truly have for war gear. ( sorry Pascal!). I think a 3 table game would be fun. Especially if units could jump to other tables. Anyways, thanks to Robyn for the many, many rules clarifications which mostly included my orks, and I am gonna keep the vortex grenade for the next apocalypse game.
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Administratum Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:19 pm
I had fun on sunday, but i am in full agreement that there were too many people. I would also really like to try out some kind of apocalypse game where there were 4 players, but 2 seperate tables like Robyn was talking about.
I was really relieved to see that the stompa lived past turn 1 and actually got to do something. When team good marked it with the objective that made them hit on 2+ i thought it was all over. Thankfully it lived and allowed me to inflict some lifta droppa madness on Paz
I was really relieved to see that the stompa lived past turn 1 and actually got to do something. When team good marked it with the objective that made them hit on 2+ i thought it was all over. Thankfully it lived and allowed me to inflict some lifta droppa madness on Paz
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Justin Buhler Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:04 pm
Indeed. Fun times had by all. Having only nine units (four vehicles and five infantry) I didn't find it near as hard as other players to get through my stuff, although it did give me plenty of time to sit back and watch everyone else commense in epic clashes. The only thing I think I can really complain about if the one thing none of us can change; unfortunate dice rolling. While my army did what it was supposed to keeping the Eldar Titan from accomplishing anything spectacular it took three turns longer than I had anticipated to destroy that blasted thing. Had statistics been more accurate and that Revenant had gone down in turn one or two I am curious how different the fight may have gone since I could have turned my attention to that crippled Stompa (or the mass of Orkish metal things). Of course, that's always the fun with playing a dice game. Now I have this mental image of Dr. Claw going "I'll get you next time Gadget, next time!" At least my Broadsides get to claim their moral victory, they did walk away with a Revenant kill. Props to my Black Templar allies who kept the Harlequins from having a chance to accost my Broadsides. As always, I stand by my prejudices that Eldar are ridiculously overpowered. What was it like six or seven Falcons land right amidst the Imperial lines and not one suffers anything more than a Crew Shaken result? That is ridiculous, no matter how you slice it. But what can I do, I just play the game. =P Anywho, I have 3,000 pts of Tau easy so if anyone ever wants to take on the Bor'Kan Ti'Tan Hunter Cadre they're more than welcome to it. My seven railguns will be waiting. =)
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Administratum Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:16 pm
A tau list that runs 7 suits and 3 hammerheads calling eldar overpowered, thats like the teapot calling the kettle black.
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Justin Buhler Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:22 pm
Yes, but if I was Eldar my suits would also hit on 2's in the assualt and all be armed with I 7 Powerfists. =)
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Administratum Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:30 pm
haha, yea. I guess if you go to a grand tournament there are 2 armies to take. The tau or the eldar. For years the only way to win a grand tournament was to take mechtau. Since the release of the eldar codex it is now mecheldar. Both are extremely tough armies, and when played by people who are skilled are neigh on unbeatable.
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Re: Apocalypse game wrap-up
Lord_Commander_Stash Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:10 pm
Why did you play on Sunday again? Why not set up Friday night and then play Saturday when the den is open longer????? 
Lord_Commander_Stash- Grandmaster
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Well
System Commander Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:14 am
The Fantasy league was running friday night, and I didnt want to come in that late to set-up. As well, Darren did open at 11 for us to start a bit earlier.
Despite all these excuses, the only real and valid one I have is that I didn't know they opened at 10 30 on Saturday But now I do!
System Commander
Despite all these excuses, the only real and valid one I have is that I didn't know they opened at 10 30 on Saturday
But now I do! System Commander
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