Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Planes on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:53 pm

By that logic, though, it would suggest that a supplement could never ally with the parent codex, as a book cannot ally with itself, and a supplement is merely Codex++.

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:08 pm

They explicitly can. It's because the suppliment says "No" to Shadowsun and Aun'Va specifically that it's called into question, and the whole signature systems rule too.

The Iyanden suppliment and the Black Legion suppliment will share neither problem.

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  dusktiger on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:18 pm

i would disagree tom. the supplements are expansions; they add more rules to the existing book. they dont prevent the book from allying with itself.

to make it more clear, lets simplify it. i can take a space marine army, painted as ultramarines, from the vanilla book. i can add an ally force using the exact same book, painted as imperial fists to make them easy to tell apart. this makes the ally force and primary force have Battle-Brother ally status, so all my libby powers and chapter tactics buff both factions in the one army.

lets add in a supplement. the upcoming rumored White Scars supplement. this, allegedly, will be an expansion that focuses on a codex astartes biker army (assumed based that A, its White Scars, and B, the rumors for the core book say a biker captain will now only make a single bike unit count as troops.)

i can still take a White Scars army, and ally it with an Ultramarine army. and it will still have the same effects on my army as taking ultramarines and imperial fists like my first example.

the only difference is the fact that if the expansion has a character that also exists already in the core codex, you cant take both. its a simple concept, and there's a precedent already. My chapter has a good example with Culln. there's the most well known version, Chapter Master Culln. Then there's 1st Company Captain Culln. There's also Vanguard Sergeant Culln. i can use any one of the 3 versions of him in my army, but i cant take 2. they all represent the same person. so i cant take him as chapter master and vanguard sergeant.

to transfer this over to the Tau, you can take Farsight, but only one version; the core codex one, or the awesome Farsight Enclave one that lets XV8s become troops. the only issue that's catching some people up is that the tau expansion states there's rules that change, and models that cannot be present in the army when the expansion is used. you can field shadowsun and farsight in one army, but you cant use the added rules of the Farsight expansion if you do so, since it states that's not allowed. so you could ally red tau with tan tau, but you cant have shadowsun or aun'va in the army, red or tan colored. its that specification that's becoming the hiccup for some people on whether its possible to ally the book with itself or not.

does that make more sense as to what im trying to get across?

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Roland on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:31 pm

Except for the part where 2 Codex: Space Marine armies can't ally:) As I understand it, Iyunden can't ally with Codex: Eldar, and Black Legion won't be able to ally with Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Farsight can because the codex specifically says it can. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

My take on it, is a Farsight list or an Iyunden list or a Black Legion list, is still part of the parent codex. You still have to use the parent codex to play the list. My two cents, hopefully GW gives some clarity on this, as it appears they have decided to open more cans of worms rather than pick up the mess.


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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Planes on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:31 pm

dusktiger wrote:i would disagree tom. the supplements are expansions; they add more rules to the existing book.   they dont prevent the book from allying with itself.  

to make it more clear, lets simplify it.  i can take a space marine army, painted as ultramarines, from the vanilla book.  i can add an ally force using the exact same book, painted as imperial fists to make them easy to tell apart.  this makes the ally force and primary force have Battle-Brother ally status, so all my libby powers and chapter tactics buff both factions in the one army.
No, that would be an illegal list.



No book has Battle Brother status with itself. That big, long, empty diagonal line in the middle there is where a Codex intersects with itself, thus Codex: Space Marines does not have a valid ally option for itself. If that blank line counted as Battle Brothers, I'm sure Nids would be all over using the free FoC slots.

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  dusktiger on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:49 am

i stand corrected. in that case; no tau/tau lists! cheater cheater pumpkin eater! Razz

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Aegwymourn on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:03 am

dusktiger wrote:i stand corrected. in that case; no tau/tau lists! cheater cheater pumpkin eater! Razz
Except for the part in the Farsight Enclave book that says it can explicitly ally with Tau Empire, which has been basically what this whole thing has been about. 

Quote for funzies "Allies - In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers." pg 91 of the digital codex.

I don't why the italicized the second wording of Codex: Tau Empire though...

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Roland on Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:57 pm

For what its worth, it's pretty explicit in the BRB, an "army" is everything, all primary and allied detachments and any forts. Pg 108.

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:37 pm

Roland wrote:For what its worth, it's pretty explicit in the BRB, an "army" is everything, all primary and allied detachments and any forts. Pg 108.
The grey area is the signature systems rule replacement and the status of Shadowsun and Aun'Va

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Roland on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:47 pm

What's the exact wording in the supplement? Codex:Tau is pretty clear Signature systems are 1/army.

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  dusktiger on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:16 pm





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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

Post  Roland on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:31 pm

Replace "farsight enclave army" with "farsight enclave detachment".

Replace "codex: tau army" with "codex tau detachment"

Farsight detachment takes farsight support systems. Tau detachment take tau support systems only faraight battlesuits are troops. Yes you can take 2 of a support system if it's available to both (like with the Eight).

The intent is pretty clear, more unfortunate phrasing from GW.

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Re: Farsight Supllement Befuddlement

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