Dark Eldar vs Eldar Batrep

I'm posting this because there's a Youtube thing in here now...  Also because it's interesting.  Natfka really likes Dark Reapers.  I think he's horribly wrong still though.

my 2 games, reapers demolished close to 2 units per turn.

Their low toughness doesn't matter if they wipe 4 units by the bottom of turn 2

canadin wrote:my 2 games, reapers demolished close to 2 units per turn.

Their low toughness doesn't matter if they wipe 4 units by the bottom of turn 2

There are all sorts of implements one can use to club a seal with.

Bring those puppies bear hunting and we'll see what happens.

Edit:  I should clarify.  For example, Flayed Ones are super terrible.  However, I can take 20 in a game and they'll do amazingly well.  Will I take them in a tournament list with the knowledge that they will win me games?  No, I'm not retarded.

How are Reapers hurting more than 1 unit per turn?!?

miv305 wrote:How are Reapers hurting more than 1 unit per turn?!?

Exarch with Split Fire and Fast Shot, bunched up guys on the ground, Maugan Ra as part of one of those units...

A competitive list is going to be able to ignore or crush them, as needed, depending on what else is on the board.  Mike, consider my 1750 Daemons list I used last night going against that.  "Sure, shoot at my 3++ mob on the ground"

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Dark Reapers don't have battle focus, which is also a big issue.  You're still paying a tonne of points for a model that has T3 with a 3+ save.

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"Heldrake says, *hellooooooo*"

Wow, with Maugen Ra, an Exarch with all the upgrades and a squad of Reapers you're pushing 400 pts.  That's the price of 6 War Walkers with upgraded guns...

yes they are expensive and squishy. But that is the whole Eldar mechanic.... excluding wraiths

Their Value comes from ability to remove Troopers, Light Armor, and Medium armor from a 54" threat range. And Maugen Ra could tank the Hell Drake. So They are maybe not the best thing since cheese falcons, but they are one of the best long range threat units.

Actually Mark, would you like a game sometime vs my Reaper Cult?

The Heldrake would also vector strike and get to an angle so that's not possible.

I also don't buy that the S8 missiles are good for Anti-Flier.  Maybe AV10-11 guys, but not the Heldrake with it's 12 and invul.

Oh they are definitely not anti-flyer. they are for infantry of any toughness but armor 3+ or worse. And if equipped with krak shots they can also fight MC's of T 7 or higher and AV 10-13 on ground. It gives them an option if all enemies are in vehicles rather then have them do nothing for a round. 

Flyers are hopefully going to be damaged by Wave Serpents, or maybe I could find a way to fit a Crimson Hunter into the list.

They are not Obliterators (who also cannot handle air). They are a unit for removing enemy scoring solutions.

Helldrakes are very hard to down in general. Even a Vendetta with AV 12/12/10 and extra armor usually lasts a whole game, or a 75 point Bastion often goes to the end.

Waveserpents won't do the job.  You'd need to fire 3 or 4 of them to take down a heldrake, and even then, it requires a bit of luck.  As a Chaos player, I'd be thrilled if you were dumping that much fire power into a heldrake.

As for Anti-Infantry options, there are so many cheaper and more effective options for the army than reapers, like whatever you're sticking in those wave serpents, or a Wraithlord, or Warp Spiders, or a Wraith Knight (which is almost cheaper than the reapers, and *way* more resilient)

If you let my Daemons shoot at them, for example, they'd kill Maugan Ra in the first round (by scoring over 18 wounds), and kill the rest the round after.  Even if I did grant you feel no pain, I'm negating it anyway by doubling you out.  That's the only thing on the board worth shooting at for them, that or screamers, which turbo boost over you and start killing things from the back, with their 1st turn 36" range and 9D3 S4 hits from your rear end...  ouch.

Necrons would deal with it with high volume of fire, or a round two assault from some dedicated assault element (like a D-Lord and Wraiths, which that unit isn't going to like too much).

I just don't see them as that strong in any situation, not when you can take other stars from that section of the book, like Night Spinners, Fire Prisms, War Walkers, Artillery, Wraith Lords, or a Wraith Knight.

I like the IDEA of the Dark Reapers but they seem like easily dealt with anti-MEQ. Seems like Dark Reapers and Banshee's are both sailing in the boat of "Sure, but I can take something better.".

The best part of teh reapers though is the threat range. All those other units engage around the 2' mark. Reapers play at 4'

Yes they are super squishy, but that is not the value in them at all. Its the fact that it is a small unit that can hide anywhere on the board and output significant threat. The place they shine is when they act as long range HMG unit that snipes out from behind the main army. Yes they are weak to fire, but the rest of the army is Waveserpent based Shuriken rifle squads that buffer them out.

The most defensible unit is not the one that can survive being shot, but the one that can avoid being fired upon.

Like the Imperial Guard Manticore for example. If it stands up mid field and enters a fire fight, It will lose to anything that can crack AV 12. The fact that a single autocannon or lascannon can destroy it does not show why it shines. It does great because it can output high damage while in the security of a parking lot or behind a large terrain piece or bastion where it cannot be properly targeted.

Reapers are much easier to hide than a Manticore, they can threaten any MEQ or even tougher units from 3'-4' range.  The real big thing about the uni is the Tempest Launcher when affected by psychic powers. A basilisk can wipe out it's target roughly 1/3 of the time, The Tempest Launcher can re-roll to hit when psychic'd so you are rolling hits 20/36 rolls. If you can see your target, BS 5 means that 10/36 scatter rolls are still directly on target. 

In the end, every scatter roll with sight is exactly on target 76.8% of the time when guided or 55.5% without LOS so no reducing scatter. Albeit only S4 AP3, but that is enough for most scoring units.

Multiply that by 3 shots per volley and # models hit per blast template. This also ignores jink's and has 2 x 1/6 chance to ignore cover all-together if you try to roll for that on your farseer.

Also, I LOVE those skull helmets! and would play them for that reason alone.

Fire Prism operates at a 60" range and costs less.

War Walkers out flank and have an invulnerable save.... And better guns, for less points per gun.

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I'd be deep striking my guys.  I don't like your odds of passing a warpflame test either.  Range isn't an issue.  Also, you need to pay 8 points a guy to get s8 shooting, which is fine against AV 12, but not 13,14, or fliers.

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Like I said earlier, I can win games with flayed ones, that doesn't make them good.

Blah, couldn't make it through the whole thing. Looked like they both took odd lists and the DE player got tabled due to wave serpent shields? Meh, I think 2500 points seems like a really strange level to play at and would seriously skew any type of data (that you were trying to use at lower point levels).

Aeg: Something I've noticed, point levels seem to be higher, likely because we are thinking "old army+flyer stuff". 1000 seems very small. VERY small. 1500 seems REALLY tight, 1750-2000 seems standardish. 2500 still seems high, but not as bad as it used to. Ard Boyz played at 2500, because most armies were stretching the FOC at that point. 

When 6th first dropped I ran a little mini campaign that started at 500. Armies were little more than 2 troops and your HQ, but they were actually a lot of fun. 4 of us would do a round robin in 3 hrs at a single table.

I suppose that is one way of looking at it. I dunno, even when I started playing in 3rd 2000 points was more of the upper end. I will admit that really small games (500-750) are crazy because you are trying to do so much with so little. So each die roll can change the course of a game!

It is to bad there haven't been any good battle reports with an optimized Eldar list against one of the tougher lists out there right now. I haven't watched the one at frontline since 2 minutes in the Chaos general goes "I don't play Chaos so I don't really know what this stuff does". Derp.

whats a top teir list? the meta is so up in the air right now its hard to tell good from bad. im not sure thats a bad thing. lets you do atuff like take 20 flayed ones.

The meta is fricken gonzo units that move onto the table, do whatever they want regardless of placement or tactics or strategy, and puke over the other guys stuff. then you wait while your opponent does the same thing. at the end of the game you check to see if anyone has troop choices left standing and the person with a couple guardians or cultists standing next to an objective is crowned the winner.

huzzah.

Yep, the game needs more "Interceptor" things.

Mike: 40k in 20 words or less.

mark: FW says what?

yup flyers are meta now

After a bit of thought here is what I'd consider top tier lists: Double/Triple Dragon; Chaos Deamons Flying Circus; Crons w/ *anybody*; DA w/ IG blob allies; 'Nids T6 spam; DE. I included the last two since they tend to be Kingmaker armies. That while they generally do not place 1-3rd they goof a lot of armies that otherwise might be better off. 

I do admit the meta is in a really strange place right now because I cannot think of a time where we have gotten so many new codecii right after an edition change. Everyone is still adapting to everything.

How can anyone make a top tier list and not include Tau, it's the consensus best army out there!  Loads of Interceptor and Skyfire, a primary weakness that isn't exploited by 90% of your opponents (weakness in HtH) and the ability to field a truckload of s7 shots.  Please don't tell me they struggle with AV14 as that is no a big deal, no one uses Land Raiders anymore, especially once Eldar proliferate and Dark Eldar start becoming vogue again.

There's one army that blows up Flyer's like it's nothing, treats Eldar/Dark Eldar skimmers like red-headed stepchildren and shoots Necrons off the board.  Play with 2 Riptides and now no Marine army can beat you either.  Playing an army that depends on cover (i.e. IG behind and Aegis, Daemons w/Plague Bearers, Eldar, DE Baronstar, etc.)?  No worries, 2 markerlight hits and that cover goes away or just shoot Smart Missile Systems, whatever floats your boat!

I should disclose I have a Tau army, they're super cool models and I like the whole hi-tech dude in a low-tech universe fluff, but the army is very obviously an absolute beatstick if an "'Ard" list is used.

P.S.  Heaven help us when Taudar becomes prevalent because the few lists I've thought up in my head wouldn't be remotely fun for my opponent...

miv305 wrote:How can anyone make a top tier list and not include Tau, it's the consensus best army out there!  Loads of Interceptor and Skyfire, a primary weakness that isn't exploited by 90% of your opponents (weakness in HtH) and the ability to field a truckload of s7 shots.  Please don't tell me they struggle with AV14 as that is no a big deal, no one uses Land Raiders anymore, especially once Eldar proliferate and Dark Eldar start becoming vogue again.

There's one army that blows up Flyer's like it's nothing, treats Eldar/Dark Eldar skimmers like red-headed stepchildren and shoots Necrons off the board.  Play with 2 Riptides and now no Marine army can beat you either.  Playing an army that depends on cover (i.e. IG behind and Aegis, Daemons w/Plague Bearers, Eldar, DE Baronstar, etc.)?  No worries, 2 markerlight hits and that cover goes away or just shoot Smart Missile Systems, whatever floats your boat!

I should disclose I have a Tau army, they're super cool models and I like the whole hi-tech dude in a low-tech universe fluff, but the army is very obviously an absolute beatstick if an "'Ard" list is used.

P.S.  Heaven help us when Taudar becomes prevalent because the few lists I've thought up in my head wouldn't be remotely fun for my opponent...

I didn't include Tau because I am biased towards them. But yea I have a nasty Taudar list bouncing around that I think would be awful for any opponent to play against.

Taudar.....Bah! Eldar is the master race! must go all out Eldar muhahah. I do love tau though