40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

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40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  dusktiger on Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:17 pm

So after mentioning one of the sportsmanship points in tim's tournament recap thread, i got to thinking. I figured maybe posting all the questions for everyone and seeing if they seem understandable/clearly worded, and if any seem over the top to the community and are overwhelmingly disliked. because if you guys hate some of them, then they might have to be changed; we dont want to post options for you guys that you think people could abuse!

so here's how i'm going to list them; the text in WHITE is what beau's original 10 sportsmanship check points were, verbatim. the following line in ORANGE is what i re-phrased them into. i'll type in GREEN any explanations or further in-depth descriptions of what we're asking you. here's the list!

Did your opponents show up on time (or
early)?
Did they show up on time?

Did
your opponent have all the materials needed to play (dice, templates, army list
and rules, etc.)?
Did they have all their own dice, templates, army list and rules needed to play?

Did
your opponent take their turns in a reasonable amount of time (taking into
account time to plan strategy, and include playing throughout all the phases)?
Did they take their turns in a reasonable amount of time?

Did
your opponent measure accurately for both model moves and shooting distances?
Did they measure accurately for both model moves and shooting distances?

Did
your opponent solve rules disputes by showing you relevant passages in their
rulebook (or, if needed, was amicable about bringing over a rules judge)?
Did they solve rule disputes by showing you relevant pages in their rulebook?

Was
your opponent’s army easy to understand with clear conversions or clear
WYSIWYG?
Was their army easy to understand with clear conversions or clear WYSIWYG?

Do
you think your opponent built an army based on the theme of a relevant gaming
universe and supplied background for that army (as opposed to a force built
purely for winning with little or no regard to that army’s established
background)?
Do you think they built a “Fluff/Themed” army instead of just a “PowerGamer” list?
Now this is the one that got me thinking i should clarify somewhat. this means is there army based on a Fluff AND/OR Theme. By Fluff, i mean ANY GW Canon that's been published in the last 25 years. We know they retcon alot, so as long as the fluff was true at some point in time, it's fine. And Theme is easy as well. Here's some example that would earn you a check here; Ben's Deathwing. the second you see that army, you know the theme. there's no mistaking what it is. and it happens to follow the fluff for his codex too. Check. Beau's Ultramarines. Is it fluffy? well, he uses units the Ultramarines are 'known' to field, he doesnt have some Vulcan-Captain Shrike combo army. and most of the time, his army lists are always Mechanized Strike Forces. So he'd have the Fluff, and the Theme of a mechanized list. an all Biker army with fast attack support units is a theme. If i fielded my Red Scorpions with all their Imperial Armour Rules, its a Fluffy army. a pure World Eaters army; that's fluffy/themed. any 'pure' lists could be considered fluffy or themed, depending on how they did it. what wouldn't likely get this check mark? mixing 2 chaos God factions that absolutely HATE each other. making some Imperial Fists army led by Vulkan He'stan and Captain Kayvaan Shrike; especially if they're painted in their natural chapter's colors instead of imperial fists colors.

hope that better explains what we'd be asking you on that point of the sportsmanship list. and remember, even if someone is a total jerk and doesnt give you this out of spite cause you whomped his butt, it's only 1 point from that one guy that you got jipped. the sportsmanship scores 'usually' aren't so breakneck that the one point would cost you big time if someone does that out of spite.

Was
your opponent of good humor and amicable when not concentrating on strategy or
planning out moves (this does not mean they put on a one man circus for you,
but rather was not angry/ grumbling/ complaining/ obtuse during your game)?
Were they good humored and not grumpy or complaining over results during the game?

Was
your opponent helpful in explaining correct rules, or explaining how their army
works?
Were they helpful in explaining how their army/units/codex rules works?

Win
or lose, was this person the type of opponent you look forward to playing
again?


Win or lose, were they the type of opponent you would enjoy playing regularly?

and of course, there's the usual "Fave Opponent this tourney, Fave Army this Tourney" at the end of the final round questions.

so? do they sound ok to you guys? reasonable? totally out there? what are we smoking and where can you get some too?
i think overall, when shown side by side like this, you'll see that the questions are the same ones you've been asked at every one of beau's tournaments. they're just less wordy than before because the sheets will look different from before. in fact, down below is an example of how the new layout will look:




and so everyone's aware, this is what the score sheet for your paint scores will look like from now on, so you have an idea 'how' your getting the points:


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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Roland on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:17 pm

Just for the record, the sportsmanship questions were lifted from a GW tournament scoresheet.

The only question I see even somewhat of an issue is the "fluff/crunchy list" one.

I'm trying to think of how to get what I'd LIKE to see at the tournament and all I can think of is "I know it when I see it."

I want people to bring fun lists and lists that are fun to play against. Razorfang lists aren't fun to play against. Leafblower lists aren't fun to play against. Etc.

I have absolutely no issue with people trying to come up with a hard list for a tourney, I actually expect it. Why would someone go balls out on their painting and then hold back when designing their list? Listbuilding is part of the hobby, just like painting, gaming, collecting, and ragging your buddies about getting tabled on turn 3 (So he can rag you back about how you only made it to the top of turn 4).

I personally think "Was their army list fun and challenging to play against?" may be a better way to put it.

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Timbo on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:38 pm

Roland wrote:

I personally think "Was their army list fun and challenging to play against?" may be a better way to put it.

I have fun playing against a challenging list. So my answer would always be yes. I want to play against razorspam, leafblower (so 2010 Beau!) or whatever GK monstrousity my opponent can come up with. If certain players don't enjoy playing against "hard" lists perhaps tournaments are not their cup of tea.

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Gain on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:50 pm

I think tough lists should be expected. You really have to go in into it with the mindset that everyone else is going to have a better list than you expecialy if your playing a codex in need of being updated. You just have to try and have fun even if your losing. The game I enjoyed the most was playing James and his gray knights and I lost rather horribly.

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Rhaevyn on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:22 pm

what wouldn't likely get this check mark? mixing 2 chaos God factions that absolutely HATE each other.

see this right here i have issue with.

you can play any combination of any units found in the entire Codex:Space Marines book. any wargear, any unit choices. ANY, and you can probably still get this checkmark. the same can be said of the Tyranid book, the Blood Angels book, the necron book. nobody but you is going to know that shrike doesn't belong in an imperial fists army.. and even that, you can rename him to suit your fluff. hes no longer Shrike, but Fisticuffs Mcsnappypants (counts as Shrike) who is an imperial fists successor chapter master that once fisted a great unclean one with a missile laucher and walked away with only a scratch and some goo on his shoes.

But

Because of some 15 year old text in a no longer valid codex says that Tzeench and Khorne like to fling snot at each other, i can be penalized for hiding my sorcerer in my berzerker squad?

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  dusktiger on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:40 am

i can see where you're going on that, mike. but remember, its fluff, OR theme. my chaos god reference was more towards a demon army. for chaos marines though, if you're playing a warband that's got the theme of, say, chaos undivided, so therefore you've got 3 or all 4 flavors of chaos in your army, guess what; i'd be giving you a check mark, buddy. to me that's a theme. now, if you were to go and do something like.....let's see....an almost pure world eaters army, but then threw in some thousand son sorcerors with very tzeentch-style powers? mmmm, i might debate whether or not there's a solid theme there.

in total there's 10 possible checkmarks. but, what if you dont think of it as a total score of 10 per round? case in point; looking at the paint score sheet, you'll see there's a total overall score of 40. but in all 3 categories, there's 35 + 5 + 4 total possible points. you're only going to get 40 tops, but there's up to 4 bonus points in case you didnt get the points elsewhere. that said, you could look at it really as sportsmanship is out of 8, with 2 bonus points each round; having an army with a strong fluff-ties, or a clear theme to it, and another bonus point for that person thinking they'd enjoy playing you on a regular basis.

if you look at it that way, and think of the total average score as 8, or 9, then really, the fluff/theme check is like a bonus point cause you went out of your way and made your list not only a good successful one in a tournament setting, but also managed to achieve a fluffy or theme look to it.

if that's the case, then really, it's not too far of a stretch to say people could assume the average score you'll expect to see is a 9, with the odd person getting that above and beyond score of 10.

or another way of saying it is that the judges are expecting most people to only get the 9 points, with maybe a couple guys getting a score of 10 cause they went that little extra distance.

and if it's looked at in this sort of way, then it might even make players think more about the score they give someone rather than just go "yea, let's see what we got here....check check check check check, done. 10 points. your cool, dude; rock on. next round!" that's 'sort of' what im hoping to help accomplish, is less blind checking of the list, and more reading and thinking of the answer. its cool everyone wants to be nice and give eachother good scores; means the community gets along well. but be honest and lets see if anyone amongst us goes out of their way to make the experience that much more awesome for their opponent. that score is, afterall, what's going to determine who we, as a group, think did that the best out of all the players. but if everyone's tossing out scores of 10 left right and centre, its not as easy to do that, know what i mean? so if you think of it more as a score of...around 8 or so, but we tossed in extra options for you to get points on, its more like "here's where we expect the average score to be" and "HERE is where we say, that guy is super nice and fun to play with"

some food for thought on how it could be looked at. not saying its the best or correct way, but it's a way.

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:12 am

One issue I'd like to raise is that the person giving you the "fluff" grade may not know the actual fluff of your book.

If I took Anrakyr and Imotek would that not be fluffy? Actually, it would be. Anrakyr would totally work for Imotek, should the price be right. Imotek would be happy to awaken a tomb world into his dynasty.

My opponent would look at that question and think, "Two named lords? That'd never happen." -- No check

I'm a big fan of Beau's proposed wording. "Was their army list fun and challenging to play against?"

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:21 am

isn't even that complicating the issue more than needs be?

do we have to have non- quantitative questions on the form?

we already have two questions that address people being douche bags. "favorite opponent" and "best army"

I like those two questions, because they are positivity based. and inclusive instead of exclusive.

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  dusktiger on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:24 am

there's a while yet before the next tournament, so we can leave this up and let everyone post a reply of their opinion. its human nature that we wont get a list that makes everybody happy, but if the majority are fine with it, that's the best anyone can hope for really. so the rest of you guys reading this; post a reply what you think; keep that question or change it, or what?

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Re: 40k Tournament sportsmanship questions

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:41 am

Rhaevyn wrote:we already have two questions that address people being douche bags. "favorite opponent" and "best army"

I like those two questions, because they are positivity based. and inclusive instead of exclusive.

Quoted for Truth.

If we keep the questions positive, the atmosphere will be more positive.

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