Total Flame Job!

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Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:10 am

I just totally pwned some nerd on the BoLS forums. Check out this thread, I as always am mr_juzam:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/12/40k-necron-unit-analysis-lychguard.html

It's probably near the bottom, but feel free to read for context. Bam!

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Veyure on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:07 am

That is pretty damn funny.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:17 am

Have you fought those sentinels? Man, they're tough.

14" threat range from a stationary scythe is probably good....

Lots of 'tards over there... "I'd take Praetorians with rods of the covenant.". Those shields are nearly as bad.

All war scythes all the time. That's like saying assaulting with a nob squad is risky.... I don't get their theory-craft.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:17 am

They had a whole article about lychguard and wraiths, and didn't talk about their kit at all. It's not like lychguard have a ton of options. In fact they have two. And the writer just dismissed one of them out of hand, and noone (except me!) called him on it!? To be fair, I don't think Lychguard will see a lot of play because I think Praetorians are better. But in this mech-heavy environment, surely people can see the utility of a weapon that is good against both vehicles and heavy infantry/monstrous creatures?

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  miv305 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:15 am

@Tim - you made a good point, Lychguard without War Scythes can get bogged down but I doubt anyone would field a mob of them without Obyron and a Scythe wielding Lord. I honestly think Obyron is the key for that unit, with him they become fast (due to his ghostwalker mantle) and can also bust walkers in CC.

There are few units in the game that can tackle Obyron, a Lord and 5 Shield-bearing Lychguard.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:21 am

miv305 wrote:@Tim - you made a good point, Lychguard without War Scythes can get bogged down but I doubt anyone would field a mob of them without Obyron and a Scythe wielding Lord. I honestly think Obyron is the key for that unit, with him they become fast (due to his ghostwalker mantle) and can also bust walkers in CC.

There are few units in the game that can tackle Obyron, a Lord and 5 Shield-bearing Lychguard.

Once you've got a Lord with a Scythe in there, it's a different story. Is it the 90 pt 1 wound lord with an Orb, Scythe, and Scarabs? That's 315 pts without Obyron. All that for an assault unit with 1 attack on it's profile... "meh"

Lychguard aren't that good, really.

Edit: I'd assault that unit with 20 slugga boyz, and win.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Veyure on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:59 am

You say what you would counter with that but WHY would the controller let you? The idea of the lychguard is to take on elite units, not large mobs of light troops. It's the controller's use of any said unit that makes it worth taking. I can attest to that when I played with a all Tzeench chaos marine list. Most people will tell me it's a bad idea but I was able to gain top prizes in a tournament with it.

Summary: You can calculate every possible matchup which would make the lychguard a terrible but there are other matchups that will make them good.

I would never send an assault squad against assault terminators as they would be decimated. You need to consider what the possitives of a unit are instead of how bad they may be against other units.

Be an optimist prime, not a negatron!

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:29 pm

Fair enough Veyure,

Although I think, in practice, Lychguard would be much easier to assault, as they're fairly slow. If they're deepstriking around, you'd be able to assault them first, or if they're in a Night Scythe, they're only getting the assault if the Night Scythe doesn't move before it drops 'em out.

I could see Lychguards being used... and I think they could be good, I just don't think they're good enough for the 500 pts it'd take to make them that good. :-)

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:20 pm

Lore Weaver wrote: All that for an assault unit with 1 attack on it's profile... "meh"

Lychguard aren't that good, really.


Lychguard have 2 attacks. Ouch, how embarassing for you Embarassed

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:29 pm

miv305 wrote:
There are few units in the game that can tackle Obyron, a Lord and 5 Shield-bearing Lychguard.

How about the aforementioned slugga boyz? Khorne Berzerkers? 10 Grey Hunters who pop their bro banner? 10 Wyches with +1 str combat drugs? These will all beat that unit and they are all basic troops. Nothing weird or exotic here.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:19 pm

Timbo wrote:
Lore Weaver wrote: All that for an assault unit with 1 attack on it's profile... "meh"

Lychguard aren't that good, really.


Lychguard have 2 attacks. Ouch, how embarassing for you Embarassed

I #FAIL *laughs* They still suck, too many points. 10 pts less per model and I'd take 10. :-)

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  miv305 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:59 pm

Unfortunately your aforementioned troops don't win, they lose. That's not surprising considering the pts values involved but still.

Consider this:
10 Grey Hunters pop the banner and charge;
They score 15 + 2.5 hits;
They score 7 wounds;
2 Lychguard drop at initative step 4;
Obyron scores 3.35 hits and 2.8 wounds;
Lord scores a hit and .83 wounds;
3 Lychguard score 3 hits and 2 wounds;
Grey Hunters lose by 4 or 5 (odds are its 5);
Grey Hunters break;
1 Lychguard gets back up;
One 10 man squad for 1 Lychguard...

Now I'm sure Mark is having a seizure he's so excited to do more math regarding other scenarios so I'll let him.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Lore Weaver on Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:54 pm

20xSlugga Choppa boyz, two shooty weapons and a klaw nob.

2 Boyz don't make it
15x4 + 2x3 regular attacks at init 3. WS4 S4
That's 66 attacks, 33 hits, 11 wounds, 3.67 dead lychguard.
Lets say Obyron gets his +6 dudes missed attacks, gets 6 hits, 5 dead orks
The two remaining lychguard get 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 dead orks.
Fist Ork gets 1.5 hits for 1 dead lychguard.

That's 4(4.67) dead lychguard. so a good chance that the unit dies without a rez (depending on how you allocate hits to Oby)

7 dead orks, they lose by 2 but are still fearless. Next round, the boyz are wounding on 6's and things won't fair so hot for the Orks, but they might finish off the last lychguard, but Oby takes out the rest of the unit.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:19 am

You're not giving the Grey Hunters any kind of power weapons or a Sgt guy? How does Oby do 2.8 wounds when he only has 3 attacks? The combat is winnable for any of those units, and they are all cheaper. The Khorne Berzerkers get 36 attacks at I5 for 24 hits and 12 wounds, although they are relatively expensive compared to the other examples. The champion adds another 2-3 wounds with a fist at I1. The Wyches can tarpit that unit for some time, especially if they get a shardnet or two touching Oby. Although Oby could then teleport away. I dunno, I just find the unit's capabilities extremely underwhelming for the cost. It's a unit that can only fight in melee, and they're really not that great at it.

Also, Oby's extra attacks are from enemies attacking him, not his unit. Tough to mathhammer out, but obviously noone would attack him unless forced to. The charger would be best putting his fist guy in BtB with Oby then he would not benefit from any extra attacks (as the misses would come after Oby strikes). Obviously, unless they are the third unit in, Lychguard will never get to charge anything. If Oby is not out front and piles in, then the charger wouldn't have to attack him at all.

Also Mark, Ork Nobz have 3 attacks on their profile for what it's worth. So the Nob will get 2 hits on the charge, not 1.5. The lychguard need 3s to wound the Orks so each 45 point model averages 2/3 of a dead 6 point model per CC phase. Impressive! Because of how Oby's special rules work, the Orks are almost better off charging that Lychguard unit in cover. Let's not forget the shots on the way in also. Lychguard don't shoot, all of those other units do. They would each have a chance of maybe taking out a dude on the way in. Splinter pistols FTW!

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  HiveMindRuik on Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:42 am

lmao owned by a narrative awsome! xD go tim!

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Veyure on Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:26 am

I just don't understand why you guys are so adamant about proving how a large troop unit can defeat a unit of lychguard. Mark acknowledged my point earlier that lychguard are not meant to fight those other units. They are a specialty unit meant to take on other small elite units. So if that is the case, why would the controller allow them to be engaged in CC with 20 orks or 10 grey hunters, etc? If I was using them I'd be looking at large tyranids, other 5 man elite units (terminators), or vehicle walkers using warscythes. Leave those 20 man ork mobs to the super firepower of the rest of the army like it is meant to be.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:26 am

That's very true, Veyure, but as Tim and I are arguing, due to the nature of the Lychguard, the opposing commander will often be able to get the charge, likely with one of his Troop choices.

This is why we're putting forward the point-of-view that the Lychguard get killed by said units when they charge. :-)

Just to add insult to injury :-)

30 Grots with 3 Runtherds (120pts)

Shooting
30 shots = 15 hits = 5 wounds = 1.67 dead Lychguard (33% reanimation, no orb, or is this the 500pt unit of Lychguard O_O )

Assault
60 Grot Attacks, 30 hits, 5 wounds = 1.67 dead Lychguard (Init 2)
9 Runtherd Attacks, 4.5 hits, 1.5 wounds = 0.5 dead Lychguard (Init 3)

Oby at -1 attack (Grabba-stick) = 2 dead grots
3 Lychguard = 5 dead grots

I lose combat, but already killed their points worth in Lychguard

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:10 pm

15 hits is only 2.5 wounds. Grot blastas are only str3.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  ScottRadom on Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:36 pm

I followed that link Timmer posted, where's the flame job?

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:54 pm

My sweet narrative near the bottom. If you don't know 40K it might not be totally hilarious. Otherwise it is totally hilarious.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  ScottRadom on Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:57 pm

I see. Well then... good job with the flaming. Keep up the good work. Job well done and all that.

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Re: Total Flame Job!

Post  Timbo on Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:04 pm

Cheers mate!

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Re: Total Flame Job!

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