CSM

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CSM

Post  Selik on Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am

OK, so I have a whole bunch of CSM. I bought them used. This was when I did not really understand the CSM dex. does it really mater if I use world eater models to represent regular CSM models. it is the helmet that really makes them stand out as non-reg CSM.


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Re: CSM

Post  Rhaevyn on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:17 am

Normally, i would say, "no, it doesnt matter."

But when most people see Berzerkers, they react differently than when they see regular CSM.

I literally have a big freezer bag of those old single pose 'Zerkers too, so i understand your pain.

A lot of folks will probably let you proxy them however you want, as long as you mention it before a game. I don't think it would fly in most tournaments though.

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Re: CSM

Post  System Commander on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:02 pm

I dont think anyuone would really mind to much..

Your not a fan of the berserker? I still play chaos fairly regularly and the berserkers are probably one of the best troops they have.. they are still a fantastic assault unit.. although are starting to show their age a bit with the newer assault units.

Would you use them as khorne marked marines, or just unmarked chaos marines?

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Re: CSM

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:01 am

Khorne Berzerkers are fine troops. Just make sure you give the champion a powerfist. Some people are tempted to give the champion a power weapon because of the initiative 5 for the furious charge, but never do this. Never ever do this. Please don't make me explain why.

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Re: CSM

Post  Roland on Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:18 am

Tim: my old self (the one that built my Zerkers) wants you to "splain. My new self is nodding silently.

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Re: CSM

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:59 am

Winning Combat is fun.

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Re: CSM

Post  System Commander on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Champs with WS 5 are great.. means those fist are getting through easier.. plus the bersekr champ gives you an extra attack.. and if they get attacked by something ugly like a dread or other montrous creature, you really ned something to smack them back or your done.

Str 9 on the charge is always great if your going to hit vehicles.. like a landraider or something. If Im playing with 3 squads of berserkers, I might slap a PW on the third and make sure they hit infantry, but the fist is the best choice by far.

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Re: CSM

Post  Timbo on Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:22 pm

Roland, embrace your new self. Also the math is really simple. Str9 on the charge is great (Ork players know that!), but you don't always get the charge. 3 WS5 str8 attacks vs 2 WS4 str8 attacks = twice as many hits versus versus WS4 targets. So your Khorne champion is twice as effective as a Plague Marine champion at punching dreadnoughts or terminators or other nasties that marines don't really like fighting. Now if he has a power weapon he hits at I5 (or 4 if charged) along with the rest of his homies so your opponent can stack all of the power weapon wounds onto a single model. You might as well not have a power weapon at all. I suppose it could be good if you were charging a single terminator character model or something, but then wouldn't you just rather squish it with a powerfist anyways? The power weapon tends to be a "bad player detector". If your opponent has voluntarily paid points for one, you're well on your way to a victory.

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Re: CSM

Post  Selik on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:13 am

I like the zerkers, I have 60ish of them. but I also have csm with bolters and heavy bolter that have the zerkers helmets. so they are not really zerkers. and I am not sure what I am going to do with 6 guys with plasma guns, thinking of making havocs squads as they are cheaper to field than chosen to be able to use them all.

I know I am going to need more choas rhinos to make the army more effective (only have 1 now) with 60 zerkers and no transports they get shot up quickly.

I have to say that power wps have their place in army, just as power fists do. a PW with melta bomb still allows you to hurt vehicles and walkers while you get to keep your initative. PF are a little more versitile with being able to hurt more things that are not vehicles but striking at init 1 and you lose that extra attack for 2 close cbt wps. I have had bad rolling and had my squad of zerkers lose cbt then lose more guys due to the fearless rule and lose more to that. I think I like both options.

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Re: CSM

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:39 pm

I would normally agree with you about power weapons, but the problem is wound allocation.

with the way that wound allocation works, and the number of attacks that zerkers get. your going to have a lot of hits on whatever your attacking. so your opponent can allocate all of the power weapon hits to the same model. so your 56 point zerker champ with 4 attacks gets to kill One dude REALLY Really good. On the other hand, your power fist guy goes on a different Init than the rest of your zerkers. so your zerkers go, they do their damage, the enemy goes, he does his damage, and then your fist champ has the opportunity to kill 4 peoples.(instead of just one).

I'm sure mark can do the math for you on 4 Str 9 Power fist attacks vs any AV vs a single meltabomb attack.

I can think of certain scenarios where power weapons would be preferable, but zerker squads generally arn't the place.
(i Mourn this, as there are several GREAT chain Axe champion models Smile )


Last edited by Rhaevyn on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: CSM

Post  System Commander on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:45 pm

You bet.. power weapons in the army are fine, slaneesh champs for example... but power fists on berserkers are generally better.

I have used a power weapon from time to time in a squad if Im running 3 or more berserker squads, but typically put them in a land raider just to help make sure I get that charge.

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Re: CSM

Post  gluvzer on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:48 pm

Rhaevyn wrote:I would normally agree with you about power weapons, but the problem is wound allocation.

with the way that wound allocation works, and the number of attacks that zerkers get. your going to have a lot of hits on whatever your attacking. so your opponent can allocate all of the power weapon hits to the same model. so your 56 point zerker champ with 4 attacks gets to kill One dude REALLY Really good. On the other hand, your power fist guy goes on a different Init than the rest of your zerkers. so your zerkers go, they do their damage, the enemy goes, he does his damage, and then your fist champ has the opportunity to kill 4 peoples.(instead of just one).

I'm sure mark can do the math for you on 4 Str 9 Power fist attacks vs any AV vs a single meltabomb attack.

I can think of certain scenarios where power weapons would be preferable, but zerker squads generally arn't the place.

I agree with Mike and Tim. Just chiming in for clarification: allocate wounds, not hits.

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