Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

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Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  judchic on Thu May 19, 2011 11:33 pm

so with the wording of grey knights they get preferred enemy and have all of their powers work on units with the demonic rule. nothing in the chaos marine codex has it, including daemon princes, lesser daemons, greater daemons and possessed. how does that work?

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  System Commander on Fri May 20, 2011 9:15 am

I cant remember if there's a statement somewhere in the Chaos Marines book that states the units still function as daemons or not..

That being said.. logic dicates they should be affected.. but if it says they have to have the daemonic rule, then yes, the chaos units wouldnt be affected. THe daemonic rule ties in a bunch of other abilibies.. so.. who knows what they were going for.

It is being discussed on other sites?

A faq from GW before 2012 would be great for the Grey Knights.. lots and lots of unanswered questions..

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  System Commander on Fri May 20, 2011 9:31 am

Looks like it is a pretty heated debate on some other boards.

As it is right now though.. the units in the Chaos Daemons codex and the Eldar Avatar are the only units with the Daemon special rule.. which the grey knights powers refer to.

So, rules wise.. and its pretty clear cut.. chaos units (possessed, lesser and greater daemons) are not affected.. and neither is the Daemon Prince.

Its goofy yes.. but hard to tell on their end if it was intentional or not.. sometimes they do goofy things..

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Roland on Fri May 20, 2011 10:23 am

This reminds me of the crap going around after the CSM dex was updated, and Codex: Daemons was released, b/c daemonic gifts (for lords) went away, and other than the Greater Daemons, none of them were called a "Daemon Pack" or "Daemonic Beasts" or whatever the terminology was in C:DH.

I'd propose a simple solution: Does the unit have an item or rule that has a form of "daemon" in it's name? Is the unit name some form of the word "Daemon"? Then it counts as a daemon. That'd be Daemon Princes, Lords w/ Daemon weapons, Possessed (via "Daemonkin"), any vehicle w/ Daemonic Possession, and Greater and Lesser Summoned Daemons.

Oh and Daemonhost, and Inquisitors w/DW and Crowe if you're playing GK vs. GK.

I can think of a few other that I feel should be included due to fluff, but this would be a good compromise until the FAQ clears it up. If memory serves me correctly, this is basically the same units affected by the rules before all the updates.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  dusktiger on Fri May 20, 2011 11:36 am

it could be possible that the writers just assumed all those demon units in the chaos codex had the demon rule because they say demon in their names, and didnt actually check if they did before printing. the long list of typo and re-wording faq's prove they dont proof read anything they type. and they're supposed to be the homeland of our language? sorry UK, but your english is fail. only canadians appear to know how to use grammar check.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Roland on Fri May 20, 2011 12:08 pm

I remember reading about one of those "Ask Jervis" things at a Con, and someone brought up the DH rules not affecting anything from Codex: Demons because of the wording. HIs response was "It says 'Daemons' on the cover, anyone who can't figure that out is an idiot."

It says a lot that if you really look at it, all the rules. codexes, and supplements are covered by about 3-4 guys at any one time. (Currently Jervis, Robin, Phil and Mat correct?) I get the impression there is noone to schlep around updating FAQs or to proofread the codexes etc. I'd wager each of the 3 (b/c Jervis is also over the new models, accessories, etc) has anywhere from 3-4 codexes in some stage of development, ranging from "ready to print" to "here's some ideas for updating Grey Knights in 4-5 years". By any stretch of the imagination, that's a LOT of work. I know before they had a large playtesting crew (free of charge!) and Andy Chambers seemed to have a knack for getting EVERYTHING done (including FAQS). Now they pop out a Codex, a FAQ (hopefully within 12 months) and free WD articles from time to time afterward to keep interest up. I've always thought the Codex system itself was bad way to introduce rules, because no matter how well you do it, something isn't backward compatible. (Anyone thing Psyker levels will be standard in 6th?)

The obvious solution is to let the fans take care of creating/maintaining the FAQs, but corporate appears to have put the kibosh on anything like that. So maybe we'll see an actual ruling on this come Xmas 2012.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Guest on Fri May 20, 2011 12:21 pm

As nothing in the CSM codex is techincally a daemon by the rulez, (since daemon is a special type, like fearless or Indipendant character), even teh summoned ones, then I would defnetly call that a typo.

If I would have to rule over whether a daemon-bane ability works, I would consider summoned lesser/greater daemons, and Daemon Princes as definetly daemons.

As it is stil a grey area, I would not consider possessed, or models with daemony gear to be full daemons for rules purposes.

EDIT-- Oh and every single model from codex Chaos Daemons is a daemon in my book. As I've only skimmed the new GK codex, Im not sure what the rules in there say, and what they do in regards to daemons, but those are the models I would rule as being affected by any such abilities.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  System Commander on Fri May 20, 2011 3:37 pm

Yeah, its a tough call. The units with the Daemon special rule get other benefits along with it.. that aren't available to the units in the Chaos book.

As logical as it should be that the grey knight powers effect the Chaos Marine units, I really dont think they were meant to do it.

However, something like this occurred when the planetstirke supplement came out. It said specifically in the book that any unit with the "Deep Strike" rule is allowed to assault the turn it comes in and a bunch of benefits. However, there are only a few actual units that have the Deep Strike rule. Most units have backpacks and terminator armour that allows a unit to arrive using the deep striking rules. They eventually faq'd it, but it was a pain in the ass until they did.

Who knows which way they'll rule it.. I wont be surprised either way.. but I'd probably go by the way it's written for now until they make a decision.. that is the units from the Chaos Book are uneffected.

Just my two cents..

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Timbo on Fri May 20, 2011 6:16 pm

And really, it's not like Grey Knights need the help versus CSM. Anything that can be interpreted in CSM's favour should be done so until they get a new book.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Guest on Fri May 20, 2011 6:18 pm

I still think CSM is a fine codex, as long as you don't mind playing "count as" Black Legion

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Timbo on Fri May 20, 2011 7:14 pm

Threadjack alert! CSM is a pretty weak codex, but by no means the worst. The codex suffers from overcosted models, a completely useless fast attack section, and lots of absolutely awful choices that can never be taken except in the fluffiest armies (posessed, noise marines, etc.). There are decent choices in there, but few. Therefore CSM lists will look very similar and be very predictable. They will also be playing with a 100-200 point handicap due to overcosted models. Not a game breaker against a lesser player or a weak list, but against top flight competition with newer codexes it certainly is.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Veyure on Sat May 21, 2011 12:02 am

@Tim - I'd say the chaos bikers are tons of awesome, especially when led by a sorcerer or lord.

@topic - I just want to point out that the daemons in the Codex: Daemons all gain lots of cool powers which act like psychic powers but are not. All the daemon princes in the chaos marine dex count as psykers (IE have the 'psyker' rule) and as such have different abilities and rules which affect them such as all the crazy "Anti-Psyker' Weaponry like psyk-out grenades or whatever their called. I think the Grey Knight dex can handle either using the appropriate rules as written and don't need all the extra argument.

As for the summoned daemons, they are very seldom used in a chaos army it's likely the authors didn't consider them worth the effort. The one or two units that may be seen in an army are usually not in until late game and aren't very tough anyway. Plague marines or berserkers fill the points much more effectively.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  judchic on Sat May 21, 2011 1:01 am

not all princes you have to select them to be a psyker or give them mark of tzeench but ya thats a good point.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Timbo on Sat May 21, 2011 1:08 am

@Greg Sorry, but I have to disagree. I think they will become good when the codex gets rewritten, but as of now they are not good. They are kind of expensive to be used as a suicide melta unit (119 points min), and if you equip them for combat and add a costly, crappy character it doesn't really help them out. Marines can take a captain on a bike and then get bikes as scoring units, and also have a couple command squads with power weapons and feel no pain. Bikes with feel no pain are good. Bikes that can score are good. Otherwise they are too expensive for what they do, and each non-prince character you take in a CSM army is a ton of fail. I can get a mark of Nurgle daemon prince with warptime and wings for 175 points. I can't see a lord or sorceror on a bike competing with that. Of course this is all my opinion, and I have been known to be wrong. But I'm totally not wrong Very Happy

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  smackman on Sat May 21, 2011 4:04 pm

I agree tim, the book isn't terrible it's just very clear cut, this unit is good, that unit is so horrible you'll never use it. So all CSM lists are a mix of demon princes, obliterators, terminators. Then pick your troops cuz chaos has some of the best troops hands down, T-sons are great, bezerkers are quite good, plague marines are good, even the basic chaos marine is awesome. Unfortunately space wolves, grey knights and blood angels make the chaos troops over costed because all of those dex's have better troops for cheaper, or slightly more points but much much better.

I would say that grey knight players should accept that the rule doesn't work against CSM codex because if they're playing against a pack of lesser demons and possessed they already won the game before deployment. If they're playing against a competitive list the only unit this might affect is the two demon princes which are both going to be psykers so GK can just =I=censor=I= handle them with their anti psyker gayness, not a big deal.

I will say GK needs a FAQ but it will take a long time because there's stuff in there that should be FAQ'd but they can't erase something from the dex because that makes them look bad so they're probably going through the FAQ and dex right now trying to figure out how to nerf some of the ridiculous stuff that Robin Cruddace obviously suggested to matt ward. Unfortunately no one told matt ward not to let robin do his homework for him because robins not allowed to write codex's after the IG, "write a fair and balanced codex" fail. I'm saying this because I don't know if matt ward is stupid, but I know robin cruddace is so I'll blame robin and give matt the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Guest on Sun May 22, 2011 1:41 pm

what exactly are the anti-daemon rules in the new GK codex?

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  System Commander on Sun May 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Well, the most common one is every grey knight has preferred enemy daemons. Then, everyone also comes equip[ped with a nemesis weapons. It already functions as a force weapon itself, but if used against a daemon it has even additional benefits. I dont have my book handy to check it out, but I think it bypasses the eternal warrior rule daemons have.. or i think it forces then to reroll a successful invul check or something.. or is that the psylencer. Anyway, what it boils down to is that daemons should never ever beat the grey knights..

After those, its more of a purchased thing.. but some things that are good already, get a bonus. Like daemonhammers..

Its funnyhow much of a split the chaos book makes. I still like using it, I dont despise it.. but i will say i love using lesser daemons though.. they are always handy in any game i play.. especially for 13 points each. 8 for 104 points gives you a scoring unit that can either come into the backfield to support holding a objective.. or if you need a little extra push on the front lines to tie somerthing up.. awesome.. especially since they can come in with no scatter AND assault the same turn.. fantastic !

But, youll also fine people supporting several other units in the book, while other hate them. Possessed.. i hate. Bikers.. I love.


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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  john549 on Sun May 22, 2011 11:17 pm

GK are imbalanced? what's wrong with 2 wound feel no pain unique i6 s4+(x amount of hammer-hand) termies? yeah I'd say take it as RaW and CSM are in the free and clear unless the unit has Daemon in its unit entry. But as I dont think they do... then guess those high cost (compared to C:D) Daemon Princes are less daemony then C:D counterparts lol

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  smackman on Mon May 23, 2011 6:43 am

meh GK are pretty balanced it's just really hard to beat them without a bit of list tailoring.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Roland on Mon May 23, 2011 10:45 am

The other thing besides Prefered Enemy is that any Daemon wounded by a NFW has to make a Ld check or be removed "as a casualty" JoWW-style, Eternal Warrior be damned.

I'm open to any ruling on this as long as we let ppl know how we're playing it before. I do think it's somewhat telling CSM players are wondering why a DP isn't a Daemon, but overall I think that, and the Greater Daemon are the only ones that would be REALLY affected.

Yes GK can take 2W, I6, FNP Termies (you forgot the Twin-sized sheet o' doom that gives the entire unit +1 Attack). Yes they are all uniquely armed so I can put wounds where ever I want, Yes it's also got 2 Str7 AssCannons, and a BC or GM with another attached. That unit (Paladins) is a lot of things, but CHEAP is not one of them. 5 Paladins+apoth upgrade+banner+2xPsy is almost 400 pts before you give them any NFW. That's as much as a 10-man termie squad.

I think GK is actually very balanced. They have some VERY good strengths, but there are some big holes in the army to fill.

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Re Daemon ???

Post  Commander James of the Ul on Mon May 23, 2011 2:25 pm

Okay I finally have time to contribute to the tread. I'm going to call this. One THEY ARE THE SAME MODELS. THEY COME FROM THE SAME PLACE... The dam things even pray to the same dark gods. a daemon is a daemon. Yes there are slightly different rules. BUT they are the same blasted thing. As Roland said to me it doesn't really matter what ya guys decide. But we should have a house rule or players agree on before ya battle.

And yes there are some pretty stupid lists out there. I saw on ytube one guy had 3 dread nemesis 5 paladins, Grand Master K and a stormraven. Its funny as hell i've seen this guy lose every battle.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  System Commander on Mon May 23, 2011 11:39 pm

Yep.. they are the same model.. but they have different rules. A Chaos Daemons prince is different than a Chaos Marines prince.. sure, they are essentially the same thing in spirit, but have different rules, can have different stats, and a whole schwack of different abilities..

You guys can definitely use any rules you want to when playing individual games.. but this will be the "league ruling" until a faq is out.

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

Post  Guest on Tue May 24, 2011 11:21 am

For the upcoming tournament this Saturday, I will be considering Daemon Princes as well as Summoned Lesser and Greater Daemons as Daemon models; as well as models like The Avatar, and Daemonhosts. Models like possessed marines, possessed vehicles, and obliterators will NOT be considered daemons. If there are any somewhat demonic models that I have not mentioned, then I will make a ruling when I see them.

And I will be playing CSM and I will be fielding Daemon Princes if I play

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Re: Wait, a daemon prince isnt a daemon?

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