Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

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Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:07 pm

Hey there folks,

Ever since I read some fluff about the Thousands Sons I was impressed with the whole Sorcerers trying to overcome Chaos bit. The idea rolled around in my head for a few days and a storyline of a tragic Sorcerer slowly unfolded. So I built an army around this Sorcerer's tale, and this following list is the eventual outcome. I've separated it into escalation style stages so that when I get around to collecting such a force I can play test smaller armies and see what needs tweaking and what works, but I figured I'd also ask some of the Chaos folks their thoughts on their initial opinions regarding the list. Enjoy:

700 Pts

Chaos Terminator Sorcerer: Force Weapon, Combi-Melta, Familiar, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Warptime = 215/215

Thousand Sons (6): Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, Inferno Bolts, Mark of Tzeentch, Aspiring Sorcerer w/ Bolt Pistol & Force Weapon, Warptime = 200/415
Rhino: Daemonic Possession, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Havoc Launcher = 75/490

Plague Marines (5): Bolt Pistol & CCW, Bolters, 2 Plasmaguns, Blight Grenades, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Mark of Nurgle, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Plague Champion w/ Plasma Pistol & Power Fist, Combi-Plasma = 210/700

1000 Pts

Chaos Terminators (5): 4 Power Fists, 3 TL Bolters, 1 Combi-Melta, Terminator Champion w/ Chainfist & Reaper Autocannon, Icon of Tzeentch = 280 / 980

Add 1 Plague Marine = 23 / 1003

1200 Pts

Predator: TL Lascannon, Sponson Lascannons, Havoc Launcher, Daemonic Possession = 200 / 1203

1500 Pts

Bikers (5): Bolt Pistol & CCW, 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun, TL Bolters, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Icon of Nurgle, Biker Champion w/ Power Fist & Plasma Pistol = 285 / 1488

1700 Pts

Defiler: Battle Cannon, 2 Dreadnaught CCW, TL Lascannon, CC Arm, Fleet, Daemonic Possession, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers = 170 / 1658

Add 1 Thousand Son = 23 / 1681

Lose 5 pts somewhere = -5 / 1676

Add 1 Plague Marine = 23 / 1699

1800 Pts

Summoned Greater Daemon = 100 / 1799

2000 Pts

Thousand Sons (6): Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, Inferno Bolts, Mark of Tzeentch, Aspiring Sorcerer w/ Bolt Pistol & Force Weapon, Warptime = 200/1999

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Administratum on Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:44 pm


Chaos Terminator Sorcerer: Force Weapon, Combi-Melta, Familiar, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Warptime = 215/215

that is alot of points! I think you are overdoing it here. You dont need a combi-melta and bolt of change. I would go with one or the other. I also think that you should pick a definite roll for him. 3 shooty pieces of wargear, and then the close combat power.. .that is one confused sorcerer.

Rhino: Daemonic Possession, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Havoc Launcher = 75/490

I would never put possession on a rhino. I believe that it is 5 points more than extra armor, and it does the same thing. I also think that the only place for a havoc launcher in the chaos list is on a predator destructor. You should take all the points you have saved so far and buy one of those. For 100 points (115 with havoc launcher) it is an incredible deal.

Plague Marines (5): Bolt Pistol & CCW, Bolters, 2 Plasmaguns, Blight Grenades, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Mark of Nurgle, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Plague Champion w/ Plasma Pistol & Power Fist, Combi-Plasma = 210/700

Never take a plasma pistol with a champ. I know the odds of him dying to an overheat are slim because he has feel no pain, but it WILL bite you in the ass at the worst possible moment. And if you are using a plasma pistol, it means you are about to assault. IF that is the case, then loosing your power fist to an overheat will make you cry.



Predator: TL Lascannon, Sponson Lascannons, Havoc Launcher, Daemonic Possession = 200 / 1203
This is an anti tank unit, the havoc launcher serves no purpose here. I would never take possession on this tank. A BS of 3 means that more of the precious 3 lascannon shots will miss.

Bikers (5): Bolt Pistol & CCW, 1 Flamer, 1 Meltagun, TL Bolters, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Icon of Nurgle, Biker Champion w/ Power Fist & Plasma Pistol = 285 / 1488

You know my opinion of plasma pistol power fist combo.

The only other thing i see as a big problem is the fact that you dont really have a good model to bring the greater daemon in on. All your champs are worth too many points to sacrafice. What i would do is take a minimum size squad of raptors or choosen and leave the champ with nothing, and use him as your vessel. Give the rest of the squad some fire power so they are not a total waste and done.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:23 pm

Thanks Cam, like I said I'm not all that familiar with Chaos, so your suggestions will definitely mean some changes.

Chaos Sorcerer: I like versatility in my characters, so my thinking here was have a character with lots of shooty options that is just as deadly in the assault, thus the three shooty options. The reason for the Bolt of Change and the Combi-Melta is in case the turn of Melta option fails to do its thing, then I still have a reliable high strength shooty option (not to mention the Force Weapon's armor piercing awesomeness) should I need it.

Rhino: So go with Extra Armor, ditch the Havoc Launcher, pick up a Destructor. Sounds good.

Champions: Yeah, I was thinking about the Gets Hot risk. It never was much of a problem when I played my Plasma heavy Dark Angels forces (I usually only on average lost at most one Marine per game having somewhere on the order of nine Plasma weapons), so maybe that tainted me into thinking Plasma is the stuff, but I get what you're saying. Is it alright to have the Combi-Plasma with the Plague Champion or do you recommend no Plasma at all?

Predator: I actually didn't know Daemonic Possession reduced the vehicle's BS to 3. You're right that does change things about taking that. Extra armour seems a far better option. Once again, ditch the Havoc Launcher.

So with these savings I should be able to purchase a unit of Raptors and/or a Destructor? Cause if so I'll definitely consider that. I actually don't really think the Greater Daemon fits into the theme of my army (since its supposed to be a Chaos Marine Force trying to keep itself free of possession and daemonic corruption in the true Thousands Sons way. The Nurgle element fits in as well but for that to make sense I'd need to share the story behind the army, and while I will do that eventually I want to make sure I'm happy with the story entirely before I post it.) so should I keep it, is it really worth it, or should I go with something more befitting like the Destructor suggestion? That way I don't have to even worry about sacrificing a Champion.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Administratum on Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:27 pm

As far as plasma goes, i would never put it on a 1 wound champion. In a squad of plague marines i would for sure take plasma guns, because with feel no pain it is pretty hard for them to die to an overheat. Having said that i have had plague marines die several times to overheats. To me its just not worth the risk of putting plasma on your big close combat machine in a squad.

Overall i dont know what to tell you about the list. You are basing it on fluff so you will have to decide. If you were trying to make a purely competitive list i would suggest 2 daemon princes, preferably one with the lash of submission, and 2 predator destructors... i dont know what else i would recommend as a really good buy.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:34 pm

Well yeah that is the thing, I'm not really looking to make a totally competitive army if I was to make this one. It would definitely be a story based army. If I want to take something competitively I'd have to go with Tau just because I know the Mont'Ka tactics so well and it works for me. But yeah, no plasma on Champs, I agree with that. Unfortunately going with a Tzeentch and Nurgle list units tend to be uber-expensive so taking two Daemon Princes would simply be too pricey, I'd have to slash all my goodies, also the Lash Slaanesh Prince would be difficult to incorporate into the army's theme. Like I said I'm trying to build a Chaos force around the notion of preventing corruption and daemonic possession/influence, so two Daemon Princes would also be a direct contradiction to that principle. =) So yeah, not competitive list, totally story based list, I'd only ever use it for fun or for a tournament I didn't really care to try and win (at least until I got into figuring out how Chaos really works) so I dunno. I'll definitely take the Plasma out of the Champs and switch up my vehicle picks, but I can't really see a Daemon Prince fitting in well with this list. If I don't win whatev's, at least I'll actually have an army with a storyline to it (right now my Tau and Dark Angels really don't have any personality to them, they're just armies. Which is sort of sad in a way. I'll have to see if I can fix that.).

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Thoughts on list

Post  System Commander on Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:59 am

Well, I'll start by just throwing my two cents on the plasma pistol debate. I do take plasma pistols on my unit champions, if you can believe it. Have they died from overheats? Yes, they have, a couple times in the past. I won't mention last week that my Chaos Lord killed himself from an overheat, but I had already won the game so it doesn't matter.. Smile So, why do I take them? Even though I have lost some champions in the past (with the old Khorne list, they never died with feel no pain!) I still like having that option to take a tank out with a pistol shot though, and your champion is the most likely model to stick around for a long time. I've killed many a tank and tough creature in the past because of that reason. If anything, plague marines and their champs are the ones to load up on plasma though with their feel no pain. I'll acknowledge the fact that plasma's on champ's are very dangerous, for me I think it's a point of habit now.

So, other than that Cam pretty covered all the bases with his info on the rest of the list. One thing to note though is if yuor trying to stay demon free, defiler are demon possesed walkers. Vindicators are a great buy on the other hand with Daemonic Possesion upgrade.

I think Terminators are great, I just haven't had the time to put them to use on the battlefield yet so nothing to prove that against. Tzeentch terminators I think are the best with the 4 invul save. I would outfit them with all combi weapons though. It's so cheap, and those one shot melta/plasma's will be handy when you deep strike in. As well, the heavy flamer upgrade is so damn cheap you might as well take one. With combi melta's/plasmas, you probablty wont even need the reaper. I just took mine off the terminators yesterday. Fists and chainfists are good though.

Other than that, not much other advice. You might want to consider giving the second biker another melta gun instead of the flamer. Bikers will problably most likely be around to get models deep striking in and to take out tanks fast! But this is jsut personal preference, just like plasma pistols.

Just some more thing to think about.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:52 pm

Thaks Rob, that is a good point about the Defiler too isn't it? =P I suppose I'll have to see if I can swap him out for a Destructor. So Chaos Terminator Sorcerer, Tzeentch Terminators (to team up with the Sorcerer), Thousands Sons with Rhino, Plague Marines (with or without plasma maybe I'll play both and see just how important that pistol may become), Plague Bikers, Predator Annihilator, Predator Destructor. That should probably fill up 1700 what good.

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Rhino for the Plague marines

Post  System Commander on Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:06 pm

You need to pop those plague marines in a Rhino to!! At 50 poionts (35 + 15 for X-armor) they are a hell of a deal, and get those plague marines quickly to where they need to be. They are one of the best if not THE best unit in the game for holding a piece of terrain, especially if they got some cover.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:22 pm

So, amended list:

Chaos Terminator Sorcerer: Force Weapon, Combi-Melta, Familiar, Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Warptime = 215 / 215

Chaos Terminators (5): 4 Power Fists, 4 Combi-Melta, Terminator Champion w/ Chainfist & Reaper Autocannon, Icon of Tzeentch = 295 / 510

Thousand Sons (7): Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, Inferno Bolts, Mark of Tzeentch, Aspiring Sorcerer w/ Bolt Pistol & Force Weapon, Warptime = 223 / 733
Rhino: Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Combi-Plasma = 65 / 798

Plague Marines (7): Bolt Pistol & CCW, Bolters, 2 Plasmaguns, Blight Grenades, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Mark of Nurgle, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Plague Champion w/ Bolt Pistol & Power Fist, Combi-Plasma = 241 / 1039
Rhino: Extra Armor, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Combi-Plasma = 65 / 1104

Bikers (5): Bolt Pistol & CCW, 2 Meltagun, TL Bolters, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, Icon of Nurgle, Biker Champion w/ Power Fist & Bolt Pistol = 275 / 1379

Predator: TL Lascannon, Sponson Lascannons, Combi-Melta, Extra Armor = 190 / 1569

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Heavy Bolters, Havoc Launcher, Extra Armor = 130 / 1699

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:11 am

I've also been playing around with names for this Chaos Sorcerer, so I did some research on alchemists (real and fictional) and came up with a short list of favorites (in brackets is the alchemist the name is derived from):

Ennunaki (Enki the Annunaki, a middle eastern god of alchemy)
Ostanar (Ostanes)
Zozimoz (Zozimos, this one seemed too chaotic on its own to require altering)
Nagarhune (Nagarjuna)
Calid (Calid, again, not much I could've changed save for a e rather than an i or a k rather than c)
A'Telaris (Atelier Iris)
Arktaphius (Artephius)
Trizvazonis (Hermes Trismegistus)
Trithamios (Johannes Trithemius)
Peraclusis (Paracelsus)
Tycho (Tycho Brahe)
Cagliostrum (Alessandro Cagliostro)
Fulcanar (Fulcanelli)
Elric the Impudite (Edward Elric)
Marloch (Tim Marcoh)
Zolf (Zolf)
Vahleth (Lezard Valeth)

There are a few good one's in there. Just wondering what other's thought of the list. What jumps out as a Tzeentch Sorcerer in league with Nurgle?

Justin

PS. Interesting note, in my search for alchemists, one name that came up in almost every list was Albertus Magnus. Methinks perhaps the GW folk research some of their names as well? /=)

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:10 pm

Yay, I got one Thousand Son done! =) You know what the difference is putting together a Thousand Son compared to a Fire Warrior? When you're finished the Thousand, that's like 1/29th of your army. When you're finished a Fire Warrior, that's 1/58th of your army. =P

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Paz on Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:41 pm

albertus magnus was a well known alchemist who swore he could turn lead to gold. seen as one of the 'crazies' or 'magical' alchemists. very occult junk he tried. WIERD NOTE.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Wed May 07, 2008 1:26 pm

So I'm torn and am wondering what others thought, before I take paint to model I'm wondering whether to paint the Aspiring Sorcerer's Force Weapon Hawk Turquoise (more "egyptian") or Blood Red (more "evil sorcerer-ish" (read: Dark Jedi/Sith-ish (since that's basically what Sorcerers and Psykers are (afterall, why else would most Imperial "Force" Weapons be blue? I so hope I just blew your mind! =) (yeah brackets))))). Thoughts?

Also, I now have two Thousand Sons painted. Yay! Only two more, plus the Sorcerer, to go and I have one unit complete! =)

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Wed May 07, 2008 3:47 pm

My vote would be for red (a dark one) assuming (we all know what happens when you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you... and umption.. go Sam J) that you are painting (and not DIPPING) your thousand sons the regular blue color. If you are painting them something odd.. then it doesn't matter. By the way, I am color blind.. (but still super cool).

PS . Brackets.. (are cool)

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  Justin Buhler on Thu May 08, 2008 1:48 am

Thanks Robyn, I was thinking the red too. The turquoise really wouldn't contrast enough to really look good. Btw, how did you paint your Grey Knights' weapons to get that wicked effect? Also, no, I'm not dipping them, and I am using the standard Thousand Sons color scheme, so red it shall be. Thanks again.

System Commander wrote:By the way, I am color blind.. (but still super cool).

Yeah I know your Grey Knights are armed with red power weapons (or are they Force weapons?), which don't get me wrong are wicked cool both in concept and paint job, it's just that most painting guides and colored Imperial Force weapons I've ever seen are predominantly blue. Now whether that's somehow canon or if that's just some subconscious influence I'm not sure, but in either case it's an interesting phenomenon.

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Re: Maybe Tzeentch/Nurgle List - Thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Thu May 08, 2008 9:22 am

I'm crazy though, a wildman.. I dont play by the rules.. watch out.. I'll take you down with me. GW paints power weapons blue, well, I'm going red.. thats how I roll.. wicked and wild.

Actually, the individual grey knights carry Nemesis Force weapons which channel psychic power. The stronger your abilities are, the stronger the weapon. Regular knights get +2 str, Justicars +2 and power weapons, and Grandmasters make it a force weapon. Terminators are the same level as justicars.

So, technically the red/yellow blend I have painted are bascially, power weapons. But like I said, I'm a renegade.

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