tau defenses

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tau defenses

Post  judchic on Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:02 pm

so if a tau tank got hit by ordinance would it neglect the effect of decoy launchers (pg30 of tau codex)? the rules say to count the center of the blast as the firing point (pg30 rulebook).

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Re: tau defenses

Post  smackman on Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:42 am

Ordinance no, Barrage yes. as far as my understanding goes.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  System Commander on Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:49 am

Id have to see what the wording of decoy launchers were.. I dont own the Tau codex.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Matthew G on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:42 pm

Do you mean decoy launchers which have a chance at negating an immobilizing hit
Or do you mean Disruption Fields, which give the tau vehicles a cover save if getting shot at from greater than 12 inches away.

Either way, that's a good question, that even I am not 100% sure on.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:01 am

I would need to see the tau book or I can only speculate. Can anyone post the rule for this upgrade?

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Re: tau defenses

Post  smackman on Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:21 pm

ya sorry my post was for disruption pods.

Disruption Pods throw out distorting images in both visual and magnetic spectra, making it hard to target at range. Weapons firing at the vehicle from more than 12" distant count the vehicle as an obsecured target.

so I would say for Ordinance they get an obscured for sure, for Barrage it's a tough call, I'd say it's not obscured but they take their full 2d6 scatter as if there was no line of sight, because it messes with targeting information and doesn't affect the hit at all, so since barrage can fire without LoS it seems reasonable that they would just treat it as if they didn't have LoS and the tau would not get the obscured.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:04 pm

smackman wrote:ya sorry my post was for disruption pods.

Disruption Pods throw out distorting images in both visual and magnetic spectra, making it hard to target at range. Weapons firing at the vehicle from more than 12" distant count the vehicle as an obsecured target.

so I would say for Ordinance they get an obscured for sure, for Barrage it's a tough call, I'd say it's not obscured but they take their full 2d6 scatter as if there was no line of sight, because it messes with targeting information and doesn't affect the hit at all, so since barrage can fire without LoS it seems reasonable that they would just treat it as if they didn't have LoS and the tau would not get the obscured.

I would say that it would affect barrage weapons too. However if a template of any kind happened to scatter onto it, it would have no affect. Sure you could say this could be abused, but I doubt you would have too many units right next to it in the first place to "accidently" scatter a template onto it. Also since the odds of hitting a vehicle with a blast weapon are very orky, I doubt anyone would shoot them at your vehicles, so you wouldnt use it much against them anyway...

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smiting the tau

Post  judchic on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:18 pm

what about a tyranid spore mine? biovores launch a round which lands on the ground and explodes if it hits something or lands within 1inch. wouldn't that mean that it would negate the cover save?

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:53 pm

judchic wrote:what about a tyranid spore mine? biovores launch a round which lands on the ground and explodes if it hits something or lands within 1inch. wouldn't that mean that it would negate the cover save?

In that case I would say that the attack happened within 12 inches, since the spore mine explodes on its own.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  smackman on Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:13 am

for the spore mine I agree. for the barrage I'm still on the fence, I think the scatter into it ruling is too gray, because often tau vehicles are right next to tau vehicles... which also have disruption pods... And I think people would definately fire ordinance barrage at tau tanks, 2d6 pick the highest for armor pen is decent.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:52 am

smackman wrote:for the spore mine I agree. for the barrage I'm still on the fence, I think the scatter into it ruling is too gray, because often tau vehicles are right next to tau vehicles... which also have disruption pods... And I think people would definately fire ordinance barrage at tau tanks, 2d6 pick the highest for armor pen is decent.

2D6 plus armour is decent, but the odds of landing the hole onto the vehicle isn't; as I said its Orky. You are better off firing your lascannons at them and using your blasts for infantry. its not about how good a piece of the puzzle is its about the over all statistics. Ordinance is awfull against vehicles now with the new rules.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  System Commander on Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:33 am

I agree with Stash on all the rules advice. I think you owuld definitely get the obscure roll on everything, including barrage weapons fired at it more than 12" away. I would also agree the spore mine exploding would be within 12". The only thing I kind of disagree with would be if you targeted a unit withthe barrrage weapon and it scattered onto the vehicle with disruption pods. I know it doesnt make sense logcially, but going strictly by the rules you'd have to award the cover save.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:23 pm

System Commander wrote:I agree with Stash on all the rules advice. I think you owuld definitely get the obscure roll on everything, including barrage weapons fired at it more than 12" away. I would also agree the spore mine exploding would be within 12". The only thing I kind of disagree with would be if you targeted a unit withthe barrrage weapon and it scattered onto the vehicle with disruption pods. I know it doesnt make sense logcially, but going strictly by the rules you'd have to award the cover save.

Actually going with the wording of the rule is where I said you wouldn't get the cover save if a blast scattered onto the tank. It uses the word "targeted" for whatever reason. Why not say "If a shot orriginated outside of 12"..."

But then again GW has never been good forwording anything clearly. This finer detail doesn't really matter anyway since someone would only be throwing template weapons at them out of desperation, which of course means they are loosing the game anyway.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Veyure on Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:09 pm

i use templates against vehicles quite a bit. My vindicator is my all star for killing vehicles actually. The ordinance only scatters 1/3 of the time and when it does i'm subtracting 4 from the 2d6 which usually lands on target anyway. Blast weapons are better than they used to be since they will always have a chance to shoot even if you miss your original target.

So, as you can guess stash, i disagree with you completely in your opinion of ordinance vs vehicles.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:25 pm

If you roll a 6 or more it will scatter 2" which should get your ordinance to land off target on anything other than a land raider. It is a less than 50% chance to hit which makes it less desirable to use than a lascannon. If you are always blowing up vehicles with it I cant argue with that, any weapon is a good weapon if you are lucky with it.

However if tau let their vehicles get within demolisher range they deserve it I guess Razz

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Matthew G on Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:21 am

Correct me if i am wrong here, but, Demolisher cannons are just ordinance right?
Since they are not barrages, origin of fire is determined from the firing model, so, a vindicator shooting a hammer head/devilfish/skyray with that wargear would get a cover save from being more than 12" away, but, if the vindicator shoots and is 12" or less then there is no save allowed.

?

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Veyure on Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:00 am

correct

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Matthew G on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:11 am

Matthew G wrote:Correct me if i am wrong here, but, Demolisher cannons are just ordinance right?
Since they are not barrages, origin of fire is determined from the firing model, so, a vindicator shooting a hammer head/devilfish/skyray with that wargear would get a cover save from being more than 12" away, but, if the vindicator shoots and is 12" or less then there is no save allowed.

?

Now that is cleared up.
How would this work against a Barrage, where origin of fire is determined from the center of the template (Orbital bombard, etc). I think that's where all this confusion is. If the firing model is more than 12" away, would the tau ship get a cover save? Even though I play tau and want the answer to be yes. The rule says "from the center of the template"... So, if the unit shooting the barrage weapon is more than 12" away from a tau vehicle with that wargear, would it get the cover save from a barrage type weapon...?

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Veyure on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:53 am

on page 58 of the rulebook it says under ordinance barrage weapons:
"Just like normal barrages, ordinance barrages may have a minimum range, they cause pinning and their targets work out their cover save as if the shot came from the centre of the blast marker."

To me that would indicate the shot is from within 12" of the vehicle so the disruption pods would have no effect.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  System Commander on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:18 pm

I would agree with that 100%. It's one of those rules that probably hardly ever come up, but definitely good to know.

There aren't to many barrage weapons out there these days, but you'll be seeing more when the guard book comes out so good to get it cleared up now!

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Matthew G on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:33 pm

Its not just that, but with the new SM Orbital bombardments, almost always nukes my vehicles, since the originating model (the chapter master) is almost ALWAYS further than 12", and calling down a strike you know originates WAY WAY up high (more than 12") you would think a save would be allowed.

BUT

Its a game, and you cannot blend real life in with it Smile
Just another way for people to screw over the tau...

Is it just me, or are tau seriously underpowered now that 5th ed is out and everything is Close Combat geared... =I=censor=I=, even the old rule army s and old codex army's that are melee just mop the floor with tau, all these new DS and outflank rules just out maneuver the tau...

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Re: tau defenses

Post  System Commander on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:28 pm

Its like that with all the older codexes.. with the push at making alot of these more powerful units, some armies are just getting lost in the dust.

Now, I wont even begin a rant with Daemonhunters.. but you get the idea. Necrons though, which are also in severely rough shape, might be in line at getting a rules upgrade. Of all the armies out there.. yes even considering Space wolves and Dark Eldar, I think they need it the most.

It all comes back around with time. I hung onto all my old Guard stuff, holding out hope for the old jungle fighters.. and they are back in strength. Col. Straken might just be one of the most powerful guy sin the new dex., although Comm. Yarrick still gets his due. And Marbo.. eek.. more dangerous than ever. I'm going to love giving my opponent the heebies running with a Marbo and a Callidus at the same time. Just so everyone knows, but of those guys will appear wherever you want them to on the board when they become available... and Marbo has a demo charge.. *tee hee hee*

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Paz on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:57 pm

All armies are still playable I think, its just harder to win with the older armies (ive had trouble beating necrons, and have been destroyed by DE a couple times recently!) I think experimentation with the style of tau (Ie not relying on stand and shoot) means the army can be fun, its just not a beatstick one list insta-win it used to be able to be (my ordo hereticus knows the feeling!) But really, the game is supposed to be about having fun and using tactics to win, not letting the army's rules get you the win, as that would just be boring Rolling Eyes

Ive noticed that tau can still be super powerful (Tom's tau handing me the beatstick once or twice) but just cant be played the same way as before (justin using older tactics vs. my daemons= squishy tau).

I think there are so many armies that need minor tweaks, tau are FAR behind on the update list (I've even heard ppl calmouring for an eldar update codex!!!)

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Timbo on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:12 pm

Eldar players are used to being spoiled. They definitely do not need an update anytime soon. Necrons and Tau however are obviously weak. I agree that Tom's build of the Tau list is probably the most effective, but I still think the army is well below average.

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Re: tau defenses

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:42 pm

Timbo wrote:Eldar players are used to being spoiled. They definitely do not need an update anytime soon. Necrons and Tau however are obviously weak. I agree that Tom's build of the Tau list is probably the most effective, but I still think the army is well below average.

I hope the eldar players get what they want with a new codex. Now that gav thorpe isnt around the codex might be balanced Razz

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Re: tau defenses

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