Rhino Tirade

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Rhino Tirade

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:20 pm

Greetings folks,

So I had the dubious pleasure of confronting four Rhinos the other day playing Chris' Sisters and was somewhat shocked with the experience. I mean granted, I won a major victory in the match, so the following is purely academic, but it seems to me that 5th Edition has created Rhino Rush Plus, the added plus being now they also offer Rhino Shield. Here are some of the things that don't make sense to me regarding these new Rhino rules (As a note of clarifty, if you would like replace Rhino with other transport vehicle, including Devilfish):

1st) Vehicles offering other vehicles cover saves: I, as the attacker, am firing a ballistic weapon, not only that but a super powered ballistic weapon, so let's grant for a second that the first Rhino does get in the way and gives the second Rhino a cover save, then shouldn't that mean if the second Rhino makes their cover save that the first Rhino got in the way and hence should take the hit for the shot? Why is the front Rhino's armor value all of the sudden boosted to invincible while its essentially performing a block for the second Rhino? That don't make sense gee!

2nd) But I can see the whole fraking side of the Rhino!: Now this one I thought Chris may have been doing funky, but I let it go. He had his Rhinos clumped up in a group of four, with the front ones having their fronts hidden behind terrain and the back ones with their fronts covered by the forward Rhinos. I moved my Hammerhead so I could see the entire side of his rear Rhino, albeit at an angle, but Chris claimed to get cover because I couldn't see 50% of the model (since I could only see one side entirely). I would say that being able to see an entire side of a Rhino is probably as close to 50% as you're going to get without going over (heh, Price is Right is awesome).

3rd) Rhinos moving flat out and deploying their units: Other than some humorous videos on YouTube where has anyone ever seen a vehicle moving at full tilt deploy its cargo and that cargo not just sprawl all over the ground but rather be able to fire at will? Or more to the point, if the vehicle is moving soooo fast that its gunner can't even make a clear shot then how on earth are the passengers able to just hop out and fire at will? These Rhinos must have the most amazing inertial dampeners ever.

4th) Huh, my Rhino just exploded, oh well: I for one was a huge fan of the realism associated with 4th Edition Rhinos, in that if your vehicle explodes all around you, you're not just going to brush the dirt aside and go "That was fun, let's get in another Rhino!" No, there's going to be mass confusion and disorientation, and I for one don't feel a simple Pinning Test adequately represents this. Maybe a Pinning Test with some gross modifiers like -1 per Wound caused (Note that's Wound caused not casualties) or something similar, but the current system just seems too easy.

5th) You maybe Shaken, but we're stirred: This one I think is actually a valid rule question: So it said in Chris' rulebook something about Shaken Rhinos not being able to fire and nor could the passengers fire from said Rhino. Here's the inconsistency here and a question for you all, does that "from" mean solely from the fire point or does that "from" mean from the Rhino (as in the unit within the Rhino)? I would say, common sensically, the latter, because the former makes no sense since the player could simply deploy that unit and it would be able to fire anyways, then next turn move the unit back into the Rhino and continue on their merry way.

To summarize this tirade, I play Tau. Tau are designed to be able to destroy vehicles with ease, and when my Hammerheads' attention has to be focused for two turns on Rhinos (RHINOS!) and they still only pop one Rhino, that is completely crippling my army's universal startegy with 200pts of transports. In short, my army has been crippled by rules and that lessens my enjoyment. I'm okay with losing a match because of tactical blunders or shifty dice, but losing because the rules allow Rhinos to shrug off Railgun slugs like they're Lasguns is where I feel it necessary to speak out. So yeah, there's my tirade on Rhinos. I look forward to hearing peoples' thoughts on these matters.

Justin

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  Timbo on Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:30 pm

Rhinos are fine. Marines can't assault out of them, so you get an extra turn of shooting once they disembark. Area terrain also no longer screens vehicles, so the rhinos in front should be able to be targetted. If there are covered avenues of approach to your vulnerable units, then deploy away from that area, or enfilade that area. I personally like the new vehicle rules regarding cover. You're Tau! Your basic trooper can kill a Rhino with his rifle for crying out loud!

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  Justin Buhler on Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:49 pm

Tim I think your arguments are a touch simplistic:

Timbo wrote:Marines can't assault from them, so you get an extra turn of shooting once they disembark.
Two problems: a) those Marines still get to shoot, and against Tau eight rapid firing Bolters actually cause significant damage. b) One turn of shooting is usually not sufficient to take out 10 Space Marines, and that's presuming I can concentrate my fire on that one squad, when in reality it's more likely there are several targets that will require attention outside of this single disembarking unit, and even one surviving Marine has the real potential to win an Assault against five times his number in Fire Warriors.

Timbo wrote:If there are covered avenues of approach to your vulnerable units, then deploy away from that area, or enfilade that area.
All well and good if you're not deploying first. Also all well and good in optimal conditions. Also all well and good except Rhinos can move 12" and still disembark their units, which means anything within 26" is subject to being rapid fire blasted by a Rhinos passengers. Given most Rhinos will deploy as close to the enemy but in cover as possible, that means if the Rhinos have first turn they're likely going to be 12" onto the table, allowing them a 38" area of threat (which if centrally placed means pretty much the entire table) and popping smoke grants them a 50/50 shot of having an additional 28" to add to that threat zone or the ability to also use heavy weapons as well. The only other units in the game that would have qualities similar to this are Heavy Support or possible Fast Attack or Elite units, not Troops choices with dedicated transports. Despite what people have been proclaiming I am definitely of the opinion that this new Edition grossly favors assault armies.

Timbo wrote:You're Tau! Your basic trooper can kill a Rhino with his rifle for crying out loud!
A gross misconception, as I thought so too. At most a Pulse Rifle can immobilize a Rhino, unless hitting it on the rear.

Justin

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  System Commander on Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:27 pm

Not that I'm picking on you or anything Justin, but I cant stand examples that use real life as comparisons. It's a game that takes place thousands and thousands and years in the future. You cant apply any real life examples and expect to pursuade me with them.

That aside, you must of had a bad game because I have not had a game that was completely decided on the fate of a few rhinos. Are rhinos better than 4th edition? Damn rights they are.. because they were HORRIBLE in 4th edition and had no where to go but up. All vehicles are better in 5th edition period. However, what you lose in cover saves you gain in that there are no place to hide anymore unless you deploy behind other vehicles.

Pulse rifles can still kill rhinos.. once weapons are destroyed and it's immobilized, it will still destroy.

I think the problem your facing is not that rhinos are the most powerful unit in the game, because they are far from it.. (try taking down 2 land raiders) but that Tau did get hit with a bit of the nerf stick in the new edition.

Its hard for your crisis suits to hide now as cover doesnt block line of site. Your enemies now have all sorts of new cover saves to benefit from, including their own units! Your transports are pretty expensive compared to the 35 point rhino (and for Chris, he still has to the old double price form the sisters book). Your assault troops are garbage compared to any type of marine... etc. etc. Tau are just on the list of of an upgrade and I think thats a simple as it gets. Go to Bell of Lost Souls are read the article on Top 10 and bottom 10 armies.

If you think the rhino is bad.. just wait until the new super cheap chimeras and valkyries come out for the guard.

As for the rule question. If you were in the side arc of the rhino, but the side was completely obscured and all you could see was the back.. you get to fire at the back but he gets an additional #1 to his cover save becasue of it. It sounds like everything else was ok though. Passengers still take wounds in they are it when it blows up though.. exact same as before.. str 4. Only on a destroy though, nothng on a wreck.

Also keep in minf that only 1/3 of the new scenarios use the standard 12" long table edge deployment.

I dont like to see the posts become belittling in anyway, and your reply to Tim was definitely reading as that.. whether you meant it to be or not. Tim probably has more experience with the incarnations of the game over the years than anyone here, including back in third edition when the blood angels could move 18" in their super rhinos, hop out, assault, wipe out the unit and then move into the next one. I know you like to debate, argue, counter point, etc. but everything on this board should be ketp friendly and open to discussion. Who is going to want to reply to any of your messages in the future if you just pick apart their reply and indicate to them how every point they made is wrong.

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  smackman on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:10 pm

Hey Justin, just do as I do with my tau, bring a laser pointer, settles all LoS issues, you'd have a hard time argueing an obscured target with me when I'm tracing the outline of your entire vehicle side with my laser pointer, and if you did i'd shine it in your eyes and hit you... kidding... but don't try it...

anyways, tau can still rock... just that the new rules have made our strength 5 basic guns into nerf darts, and that as an awesome infantry shooting army we get rocked by the new rules favoring mobility, but tau are highly mobile, our tanks can move and shoot all their guns, our transports can be obscured always from out of 12" and we can still pull off a sweet fish of fury manuever and use two devilfish to pull up, let us shoot, force them to either assault the transports and hit on 6's or waste their turn going around while we hop back in pull around and do it again to them... anyways I'm getting carried away...

Tau have just been forced to play with alot of tanks and alot of transports, no more setting up a firing line, standing still and shooting and shooting... you actually have to play the game now... it's kind of exciting! Although I hope a new codex changes the army completely and makes us the god army of 5th edition... but then I'd have to retire chaos or orks, the two current god armies.

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  Paz on Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:28 pm

Justin, I think you're just having a bit of a problem getting used to the tactics needed in 5th. Playing you quite a bit in 4th, you do prefer the static gun line with tau, which just isn't as good any more. Tau rock for quick mobility, as ppl have said, fish of fury, mechanized lists rock in this current edition. Smile

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  Timbo on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:25 pm

I agree that the Tau list took a beating in 5th Ed (along with Necrons). But I think mobility is a key like Paz said. Those Rhinos only move 12" a turn and your army has units that can retrograde 12" a turn AND still shoot their weapons. Your example of a rhino's deployment and threat area "is a touch simplistic" because those numbers all reflect ideal conditions. Is there cover right on the edge of his deployment zone? Will he have to take difficult terrain tests? Etc. You do have a couple of units that improved in 5th edition, take advantage of them! Kroot are slightly better and Devilfishes are much better. Those might win you a game or two before the new codex comes out.

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don't marker lights negate cover /obscured saves?

Post  Gulsnick on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:25 am

I herd the guys on 40 k radio talking about that. that seems like a hady bit of wargear in 5th edition.
mark those rhinos then pop them Smile.

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Re: Rhino Tirade

Post  Lord_Commander_Stash on Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:16 am

To answer your first point:
If you really want to shoot one of the rhinos in the rear, then the cover save reflects the poor choice of target made available (not having the full pick of treds, guns, or possible ammo storage), and the likely event of hitting the blocking rhino which would mostlikely end up blowing a hole in a non critical area (you hit the edge of it and take a big chip out of the armour, or blow off the dozer blade.....only if your aim was way off would you hit the front vehicle in a critical spot)

Your second point: If you can only see the side of the vehicle and not any part of the side in which quadrant you are in(i.e. in front ark but cannon see any part of the front) the vehicle actually gets a 3+ save as outlined in the rule book.

Your third point: I admit I did like the other rules, not to mention the current rules seem at times more lenient than even the third edition
your fourth point: I agree the rule makes no sense, but that is gw for ya...

If he is clumped up like that use your skimmers to block access points and kill the squad when you blow up the vehicle. Blowing up the front rhinos should slow down the others at least somewhat.

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