Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

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Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Spamus Eatus on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:12 pm

So I've had this conversation with a couple people in regards to using FW these days, especially in regards to "decurion style" detachments. I wanted to get other people's thoughts on the issue. The main goal here being to make it fair and simple to use FW in our lists

Now, in our local meta, alot of us have and enjoy FW, and these days, it really isn't OP in any way, with the exception of the Apocalypse level things. But at that point the game changes to a different beast, so I don't really count that.

Now, OFFICIALLY BY RAW, the only real way to properly use FW these days is in a bog standard CAD. However, this poses a few problems. For some armies, such as Harlequins and Admech, they cannot run a CAD list. For the others, it seems like using a CAD simply to use a FW unit or two would be crippling to the list. I find this kind of lame.

So here is what I've been doing, Say I'm running my Tau Hunter Contingent. It requires a Hunter Cadre and 1+ auxiliary formations. After fufilling the requirements for the detachment, I then simply plug in the FW units into the list. I don't really see an issue with this. One thing to consider is that the FW units would not get any formation special rules, since they are individual selections. They would still be subject to the detachment special rules though as they are part of the army list. This method seems to work with all armies and is the easiest and fairest way to go about it I feel.

Another possibility is direct swaps when appropriate. Say you have a list that requires a venerable dreadnought. I would be cool with a Contemptor in its place. Or swap out a Leman Russ tank from a squad with one of the slightly fancier FW variants.

So what do we think about this? The following stuff was for regular games. For tournaments and league finals and such, it would have to up to organizers how to use FW if at all.




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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Paz on Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:12 pm

I would vote no.

Its too far a slippery slope to allow people to slot in FW units into GW detachements. If you want to take FW units, you'll have to use a regular CAD, and I think thats fair.

There are very powerful and competitive FW units now, I think allowing this would open up a pandora's box.

Plugging in an auxillary is often a tax (daemonkin, new daemon formations off the top of my head) so adding something of your own choosing seems something we shouldnt allow.

Just my opinion tho Smile And this is coming from a guy with a lot of FW units!

Just imagine the FW daemon prince of nurgle as part of the tetrad. Now you've got a toughness 9 daemon prince...

Or, with auxillaries, lets say you replaced the tzeentch aux formation with a squad of bloodslaughterers. Now they benefit from being part of the same army that allows +1-1 from the warpstorm (something that effects every unit, not just the formation) and you've got superfast cc dreads with 4++ invul saves for 135 pts a model.

Now, I aint saying every formation has this, but if we start allowing it, just imagine coming for a game, and finding out someones got a FW unit that gets a silly benefit it wasnt intended to have.


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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Roland on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:27 pm

As you say, some are fairly simple. Deimos Pred in place of preds, contemptors in place of venerable dreads....

What about Sicarans? Are they equiv to a predator? A land raider? A predator squadron?

I'm not saying the individual decisions are difficult, but there are a buttload of them and it would pretty much have to be on a case by case basis.

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Aegwymourn on Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:09 pm

Paz wrote:
Good stuff.

+1

Part of the downside to taking the "decurion" style detachments is the required or limited units available. If you don't like the restrictions don't use the detachment.

(Note this is for "serious buziness play" if you and your opponent are on the same page go for it)


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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  dusktiger on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:10 pm

for the smaller stuff, which has its own mirror equivalent in the core codex, i'd be fine with a straight across the swap in the formations.  as stated, preds for preds, dreads for dreads; the differences between models like that is usually already given a higher points-price that it'll usually balance out. normal, 40k contemptors don't come in "talons" (1-3 models per 'unit'), and the deimos pattern predators don't either.  So if they were to be swapped, you're stuck taking a single one to represent the "slot" that would usually allow a 1-3 of the normal variant model.  i'd also be okay with the same for say, the new big guy, the leviathan dreadnought, being a single model swapped out for a 1-3 dreads slot in a SM formation.  If you want to replace the ability to spam 3 normal dreads for a single 285pt dread, go hard man.  YMMV.

the bigger stuff that does NOT have a codex equivalent though, such as stuff like sicarans, etc, should not proxy as another unit in a formation.

however, if you want to just take your formations, and toss in some random FW model that isnt a part of any of those decurion formations, then go ahead; your list just becomes unbound instead of battle-forged because you fielded 1 or more models that don't fit into a formation.  Last time i checked the rule book 2 weekends ago, that's completely allowed.  As an aside, i also noted that the current digital copies of the rulebook state that Unbound is actually the standard method of list building now, and that battle-forged is an optional only method now. (really pushing the 'beer and pretzels' list building method, as beau put it).

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  GingerBalls on Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:51 am

I have to agree with Pascal on this. The point of decurion style lists are the command bonuses for the limit on what units you can take. Would I love to take my FW riptides in a hunter contingent or, hell, a Riptide Wing? Yo ya. But I just don't think it's fair.

There is already a plain and simple (and fair) way to play FW units and that is by taking a CAD list. Simply plopping things onto the end of a list goes against all established list building rules and limits and could definitely get out of hand quite quickly.

In the interest of keeping things on the level and in the spirit of the game I think we should all stick to list building rules as they are meant to be. Smile

Ben, in saying all this I didn't think anything you did was outright distasteful, it's just breaking the rules as they were meant to be.

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Paz on Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:41 am

GingerBalls wrote:Ben, in saying all this I didn't think anything you did was outright distasteful, it's just breaking the rules as they were meant to be.

Yeah, this needs to be said as well. I don't think you've tried to 'game' the system at all Ben, nobody would ever claim you're a power gamer Razz

Its just that its too complicated a system to start making local changes to it at this point, too many ways it could end with a sour game if hunters as a group ruled on it.

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Roland on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:22 pm

This is my line of thinking. I'm ok with it, and would love to see FW rulings or their own formations.... But the level of involvement is too much to do locally, and in any case would be influenced by our local meta (50% ""rule of cool"/50% "don't be a dick" about right?)

For instance I can tell you, right now what FW subs I would make in DA formations. That said, Ben will not agree with all of them.

For someone who isn't a DA may feel other bits are Over powered or underpowered.

Same for SM.

TLDR: no for tourneys, whatever you and your mates like casual.

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Matthew G on Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:40 am

I feel I need to chime in and apologise to anyone I may have played in the last bit (since I got my sicarian).

I am a FW noob when it comes to rules. I go online an search the rules, or acquire the individual rules for my tank (and now my deredeo) and use them in my armies.
From reading above I see that apparently you can only use these items in standard CAD lists? Well, in all but maybe one game I was taking them in my BSF (Baal Strike force) lists.

My next question, so I can stop being ignorant of it, would someone please point me in the proper direction (page numbers and the book it's in) for fielding FW units? I would actually like to read this section as I have obviously not done this.

So, yeah. I issue my formal apology. And thank you for letting me be ignorant if you knew I was doing it wrong and didn't say anything to me.



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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Paz on Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:11 pm

Matthew G wrote:I feel I need to chime in and apologise to anyone I may have played in the last bit (since I got my sicarian).

I am a FW noob when it comes to rules. I go online an search the rules, or acquire the individual rules for my tank (and now my deredeo) and use them in my armies.
From reading above I see that apparently you can only use these items in standard CAD lists? Well, in all but maybe one game I was taking them in my BSF (Baal Strike force) lists.

My next question, so I can stop being ignorant of it, would someone please point me in the proper direction (page numbers and the book it's in) for fielding FW units? I would actually like to read this section as I have obviously not done this.

So, yeah. I issue my formal apology. And thank you for letting me be ignorant if you knew I was doing it wrong and didn't say anything to me.


No worries dude, with the myriad CADs out there, it can be hard understanding what is what.

For FW, (deredeo for example) it will say on its unit entry where the model goes, so deredeo is a heavy support choice. The reason you cant slot in the deredeo to your formations is that the formation does not specifically list the deredeo, sicaran or any 'special' fw units as choices. So the Deredeo doesnt count as a regular dreadnought, the sicaran doesnt count as a regular predator etc.
So if you take your baal formation, you'd need an additional hq and minimum 1 troop to run your deredeo, or 1 hq and two troops for deredeo and sicaran.

Bonus is this 2nd cad will have objec-secured, something formations dont have, and you can pretty cheaply run 2 5-man scout squads and a techmarine or something for under 200 pts.

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Aegwymourn on Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:16 pm

I'd clarify Paz's post a bit more.

Specifically FW units typically occupy a force organization slot. A large number of the new detachments do not use a force organization chart but rather a specific number of units or formations (with specific units). For example for Eldar one of my formations is the Aspect Host. This formation requires three units from a list of aspects. Note it doesn't say two HQ and one Fast Attack.

TL:DR

If you are taking FW stuff check its requirements to be brought. If it says "can be taken as a HQ/Elite/FA/etc." make sure your detachment/formation uses that structure.

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Matthew G on Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:45 pm

Hmmm.. Now I am a bit more confused. I pulled up the deredeo rules from an online .pdf. Not sure if this is latest and greatest or not, but it says that the Deredeo counts as a heavy support choice for Codex space marines, codex blood angels, and codex dark angels detachments. So... The BSF detachment I use is like this

1-2 HQ
1-4 Elites
2-6 troops
0-3 fast
0-3 Heavy

So... As I read it, I can actually slot the deredeo into this detachment with no worries? Or, is there a different printing or rule(s) set I failed to read that would be elsewhere in one of the FW books.

I don't have my sicarian rules on hand atm, but I think it reads similar to the above deredeo....

Maybe I haven't been breaking the rules?

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Roland on Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:55 pm

Matt, I'm pretty sure you're a-OK.

Ben/paz are talking for formations. Like the Demi-Co specifies a Dread, Ven Dread or an Iron Clad. Can you sub a Contemptor?

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Re: Actual real talk: Forgeworld and Detachments

Post  Matthew G on Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:57 pm

ahhhhh... alright then.

Carry on... Smile

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