Pre-Heresy Units?

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Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  AoOni on Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:54 am

I'm thinking that I want to build a Raven Guard army. But there's very little Post-Heresy unique to them (Corvus, Dark Fury Assaults, Whispercutters, Mor Deythan, etc) and outside of a paint job they would be nothing more than black Space Marines.
My question is, if I was to build a Raven Guard army not for Horus Heresy era battles, would it be acceptable to use vehicles/units/chapter master from the Heresy era in my army?
Or am I stuck using Storm Talons and Shrike with everyday Assault Marines and Rhinos?

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  AoOni on Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:09 am

In other words I suppose, would 30k-era units work in a 40k match? I don't want to be alienated and limited in my matchmaking just because I want to paint a Mor Deythan Strike Team

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  Rhaevyn on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:20 am

there are a limited number of 30k armies around, so your ability to play 30k will be limited.

most folks dont have the armies or the money to play 30k at the moment and most don't have any idea what the 30k units do.

You'll be constantly checking with opponents to make sure that they want to play against pre-heresy stuff, and then constantly explaining what every unit does as very few people have the heresy books. definitely wouldn't be allowed in 95% of tournaments.

I know right after i post this that two-ish people will pipe up that they have 30k armies, so you could conceivably get games.



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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  GingerBalls on Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:13 am

Most people won't have issues with playing against 30k forces in casual play but, as Rhaevyn said, it will limit your playability in tournaments a great deal (and really those are the most fun thing about 40k in Saskatoon).

What some people do (RE: Paz) is use heresy era models as "counts as" for modern units. It will allow you to keep a certain aesthetic while maintaining playability.

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  Deadlytoaster on Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:04 pm

Also worth noting is the raven guard formations and special rules released in the tau mont'ka and kauy'on books. If I'm not mistaken then get their own set of relics and warlord traits and some pretty crazy formations (I think one allows assault off deep strike??) formations will alter the way your army is composed, so you will likely have more vanguard vets and jump troopers which gives the army a neat aesthetic (without having to 30k and thus avoiding that hassle). I'm going to download this here book when I get home and give it a look over so suggestions should be easier after that.

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  AoOni on Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:54 pm

GingerBalls wrote:Most people won't have issues with playing against 30k forces in casual play but, as Rhaevyn said, it will limit your playability in tournaments a great deal (and really those are the most fun thing about 40k in Saskatoon).

What some people do (RE: Paz) is use heresy era models as "counts as" for modern units. It will allow you to keep a certain aesthetic while maintaining playability.

My hope was to have a Raven Guard army Aesthetic whilst using them as their curent-build 40k sets.

I.E, A Mor Deythan strike squad that operates as a scout unit with no special bonuses, but look like a Raven Guard scout squad,
Or a Dark Fury Assault Squad that just operates like a squad of Assault Marines with Lightning Claws.
Maybe see if there are any special relic bonuses for the Raven's Talons of the Chooser of the Slain that would level out for fair play.

Could also switch the head on Corvax for a Shrike head, but that might be pushing it lol

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  AoOni on Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:02 pm

The Raven Guard do have new formations up, as Brian said, and I've read through the Warlord traits that are laid out in the Space Marines Codex.
It seems like they have some unique special rules, but nothing to game bending:
Strike From The Shadows Any Raven Guard unit that does not begin the game in a transport gains shrouded for the first game turn, in addition a Raven Guard player can add +1 to the roll to see if night fighting is in effect.

Winged Deliverance Raven Guard jump units can use their jump packs in both the movement and assault phase AND can re-roll failed to wound rolls for their hammer of wrath attacks.

Their Warlord traits are also:
1 Vanish into Gloom When the warlord and his unit are targeted they can immediately move D6 inches away receiving +1 to their cover save if they end up in cover. A once per turn ability.

2 Concentrated Attack At the start of the charge phase you can nominate a unit in the warlords line of sight and any unit can re-roll failed charges against this unit.

3 Master of Shadows Once per game you can bring night fighting into effect as long as your warlord is on the battlefield.

4 Silent Stalker Enemy units must pass a leadership test to overwatch the warlords unit. Subtract 2 from the units leadership if the warlord is charging through cover.

5 Exit Strategy If your warlord is on the battlefield you can add or subtract 1 for the die roll to end the game.

6 Swift and Deadly Once per game the warlord and his unit can charge even if they ran.

So I'm going to download the Sons of Corax in the new Kauyon army book and see if there's anything that can be done to support the new formations that are coming to make them a legitimate contender in a 40k match. I'd happily go over their new rules with someone experienced to see if there's foundation to lay out a viable 40k army out of a 30k aesthetic.

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  Paz on Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:24 pm

There's only a few things that dont transfer terribly well to 40k:

Volkite
Centurions (different weird types like moritat etc)
primarchs (hard to counts as a huuuge marine)

But luckily a lot of the vehicles can be taken, like the sicaran, deredeo/leviathan/contemptor dreads in 40k thanks to the imperial armor books and FW pdfs

Everything else is easily counts-as.

Keep in mind, you can easily play 30k vs. 40k! Ive done it a few times. Generally it'll be an uphill battle though, 30k is pretty underpowered compared to 40k, running on an all power armor meta. (eldar will eat you butt).

But follow what looks cool first! 40k is most fun when you roll by rule of cool.

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  Deadlytoaster on Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:07 pm

AoOni wrote:The Raven Guard do have new formations up, as Brian said, and I've read through the Warlord traits that are laid out in the Space Marines Codex.
It seems like they have some unique special rules, but nothing to game bending:
Strike From The Shadows Any Raven Guard unit that does not begin the game in a transport gains shrouded for the first game turn, in addition a Raven Guard player can add +1 to the roll to see if night fighting is in effect.

Winged Deliverance Raven Guard jump units can use their jump packs in both the movement and assault phase AND can re-roll failed to wound rolls for their hammer of wrath attacks.

Their Warlord traits are also:
1 Vanish into Gloom When the warlord and his unit are targeted they can immediately move D6 inches away receiving +1 to their cover save if they end up in cover. A once per turn ability.

2 Concentrated Attack At the start of the charge phase you can nominate a unit in the warlords line of sight and any unit can re-roll failed charges against this unit.

3 Master of Shadows Once per game you can bring night fighting into effect as long as your warlord is on the battlefield.

4 Silent Stalker Enemy units must pass a leadership test to overwatch the warlords unit. Subtract 2 from the units leadership if the warlord is charging through cover.

5 Exit Strategy If your warlord is on the battlefield you can add or subtract 1 for the die roll to end the game.

6 Swift and Deadly Once per game the warlord and his unit can charge even if they ran.

So I'm going to download the Sons of Corax in the new Kauyon army book and see if there's anything that can be done to support the new formations that are coming to make them a legitimate contender in a 40k match. I'd happily go over their new rules with someone experienced to see if there's foundation to lay out a viable 40k army out of a 30k aesthetic.

The reason you should download the rules and check them out is because that's a decurion style detachment... Basically it is a giant formation composed of smaller formations, each of those small formations gets its own rules in addition to the global detachment raven guard rules you listed. I suspect there is some cool stuff in there. And as Paz says rule of cool Smile

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  Deadlytoaster on Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:11 am

Ok read the rules for the shadow strike kill team, then take one every game..... Assault units that can show up turn 1 (or any turn you want). Assault units that can charge same turn they arrive. Assault units that have the ability to not scatter when they arrive=== very scary in every respect. (plus they have all the raven guard other special rules)

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  AoOni on Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:53 am

I also read over the new rules for the Raven Guard from their new Codex Excerpt, and as for the Raven Talon weapons that come with the Chooser of the Slain, I think it could level out as their new melee relic:
From the Relics of the Ravenspire we have

Swiftstrike and Murder

Swiftstrike and Murder replace both a model's Bolt Pistol and Melee weapon. Each can be used as a Melee weapon with the following profile:
Range: -
S: User
AP: 3
Type: Melee, Flurry, Shred, Specialist Weapon

Flurry: After a model attacking with this weapon has rolled to hit, it makes a number of bonus attacks equal to the number of hits that have been scored. Further hits do not cause further bonus attacks.

This is from the new codex as Brian had brought up, but the only downside of this is if I deploy it with an assault squad, that's my relic, and I miss out on The Armour of Shadows which gives a 2+ Armor save and the Stealth special rule, or the Shrouded Special rule if it did not move/run. Combine that with a Feel No Pain and you have one tenacious monster.

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Re: Pre-Heresy Units?

Post  Deadlytoaster on Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:57 pm

Well i dont think missing out on the armor of shadows is a huge deal. Whatever you're planning to give those things to it can probably take artificer armor (2+ save) and probably already has an iron halo (4+ invulnerable save) so you miss the stealth but you get stealth first turn anyways! and lets be honest you're never going to get shrouded on a dude with Swiftstrike and Murder or you are not getting your value out of those.

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