how to break the CommComp!

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how to break the CommComp!

Post  dusktiger on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:50 pm

i plugged in my windrider host i'm slowly working at building. it fails so badly!

Eldar Craftworlds - 1500 Windrider Host

Formation: Windrider Host (28#, 1500 pts)
1 Autarch Skyrunner, 110 pts (Banshee Mask; Fusion Gun; Laser Lance; Eldar Jetbike)
1 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 185 pts
2 Falcon, 310 pts (Bright Lance; Shuriken Cannon; Holo-Fields;)
Windrider Host
1 Farseer Skyrunner, 115 pts (Eldar Jetbike)
1 The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan, 15 pts
1 Warlock Conclave
3 Warlock Skyrunners, 165 pts (Eldar Jetbike; Singing Spear)
5 Windriders, 135 pts (Scatter Laser x3; Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 50 pts = (Eldar Jetbike)
5 Windriders, 135 pts (Scatter Laser x3; Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 50 pts = (Eldar Jetbike)
5 Windriders, 135 pts (Scatter Laser x3; Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 50 pts = (Eldar Jetbike)
1 Vyper, 45 pts (Starcannon)

here's how it breaks down:
0 credits cause i stayed under 55 models (you get 1 for every 55 in your list)
if i want to roll on the telepathy chart for invisibility, then i have to pay 8 credits (once per army list) to keep the power, otherwise reroll the result to see if i still keep Invisibility
if i minimized my windrider squads to just 3 bikers each, i'd pay 1 credit for each squad. for making them 4+ models each, they become 0 Credits.
0 credits for not taking 4+ vypers in my list.
0 credits for keeping my falcon tanks under the 3+ total.

now for the penalties:
i pay 1 credit for putting Spirit Stone of Anath'lan on a Farseer.
i pay 2 Credits for 23 bikers in the list
i pay 2 Credits because there's a Farseer.
because i have 15 windriders, i can field up to 5 scatter lasers and/or shuriken cannons for 0 credits. for the other 10, i have to pay 1 credit each. 10 Credits.
i pay 2 credits because i took a Hemlock wraithfighter.
i pay 2 Credits because my list is a valid Craftworld Warhost.

so this list cost me 19 credits. 27 if i roll for Invisibility. so i'd be getting wellll below 0 on my comp score. Suck it Eldar! Australia hates you!!

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Matthew G on Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:16 pm

I wouldn't say that they hate Eldar, but Eldar (at least to me) are on a higher power scale IF you take those power units.
So, don't use the evil units and you can stay low on the credits... Ask Deadlytoaster (brian), he's been making decent low credit lists.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:52 pm

It gets points because it's powerful, not because they hate eldar. Play it as CAD and see how it works.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:20 am

I dunno, just two points because you take a Farseer? Farseers are that good that without any upgrades or bonuses they are worth the equivalent of you taking 3 drop pods? I like a lot of the community comp stuff but it is not perfectly balanced. Below gets a bit ranty (sorry in advance).

Look at Tau, if you happen to take fire warriors (which is their only one of two valid troop choices mind you) and a ethereal (which gives vps to your opponent if it dies!) you will lose points on a climbing scale (most lists that I bring have 2-4 squads of 12 fire warriors so I'm losing 4+ points most games, the equivalent to taking Tigurius!). Now the funny bit to me, is that the ethereal is the only HQ choice other than a crisis commander and he counts towards your XV8 crisis score which is also on a climbing scale of comp points! So the only two valid choices for an HQ will always contribute to how many comp points are given up on a climbing scale. Not to mention a bunch of wargear on the commander is also worth comp points (the Purtide chip is worth three!).

For SM to get dinged points you have to take a Shield Eternal (one of the best pieces of wargear in the whole of the game) with two other different pieces of wargear before you lose one point.


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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  dusktiger on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:23 am

i agree, there's some strong skewing and its clear by reading the credit sheets that they're penalizing against people not fielding a space marine codex. yes, those other books can be a pain to face, but once you face them enough times, you adjust and learn the weak points. a windrider host, while mobile, is still easy enough to beat; they're not T5 like marine bikers, just T4. and you're still only facing a 3+ save. and unless they keep the default catapults, making them jink for a better save screws up the optional guns accuracy. Even the Wraithguard lists are easy enough once you see their weak points. they have to be small groups to fit in wave serpents or they take forever crossing the table. and they don't do well against horde lists because they cant kill enough in a round of shooting before the counter-firing begins and the subsequent assaults, which completely negate the guns that make them good in the first place. they break like eggs in assault. and the melee ones are only good in melee if you field 8+ and stick a spiritseer with them; and then the squad's walking the table all game and being shot at.

alot of the scoring penalizes stuff that seems scary at first because you've never faced it, or the internet tells you its super horrible to face against. But as grown men, we should know better than to believe every little thing written on the internet as gospel from upon high. Everything in the game has a weak point to be exploited, it just takes practice and gaining the experience to know the right timing to do it. But if you never bother to play against X unit, or study how it behaves when you do this or that strategy, then you never learn how to beat it.

and beau, that list is also CAD legal; it all fits a CAD detachment. the only relief you net from not taking it as a Warhost is 2 Credits. the other 17 penalty points are there simply because of the models themselves and not how they're fielded. I could knock out another 9 if i ripped off the optional guns that have already been glued onto the windriders and make it so im only fielding 6 optional guns across the list. but even then, you're paying a bare minimum of 8 points just for the models in the list. Surprisingly, that Autarch isnt worth anything except for the jetbike adding to the total number in the list. you'd think he'd be clocking a point somewhere too, just because. and if i moved all those warlocks into a single list? then i pay even more points because once you go over 5 warlocks in the council, you pay points for that unit too.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:33 am

dusktiger wrote:good stuff

+1

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:48 pm

My point is if you're looking to save points, play as CAD and give up the turboboost bonus.

Quit looking at individual point dings.

Yes 2 points for a farseer seems like a lot in isolation..... Now look at your list. That's a STRONG list. You don't have the option of paying for Invis.... A 27 will make it illegal. Is 19 maybe high? Maybe a bit.... But that list isn't a 8-12.

Same for the tau stuff. yes that seems like a lot. What about the rest of the list?

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:38 pm

It's okay Mike, you'd still lose because you're bad at 40k. *zing*.

*just jokes Mike*

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  dusktiger on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:40 am

there ya go beau, as a CAD. im really not seeing how you figure this is going to result in anything different, but i'll play along.
1 credit for putting Spirit Stone of Anath'lan on a Farseer.
2 Credits for 23 bikers in the list
2 Credits for a Farseer.
10 Credits for 10 extra optional weapons on the windriders
2 Credits for a Hemlock wraithfighter.

17 out of 16 Credit total. Illegal list for medium sized CommComp games. (you can't take lists that go into the negative, they ban those)
As i mentioned before, fielding as a CAD only saves you 2 points for not doing it in a Craftworld Warhost.
and the only rule you gain from taking it in it's formation form is shuriken Catapults and shuriken Cannons in the list gain Shred once per game.

Total Roster Cost: 1500

: Combined Arms Detachment (19#, 1150 pts)
Farseer Skyrunner, 130 pts = (Eldar Jetbike + The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan)
Warlock Conclave,
3 Warlock Skyrunners, 165 pts (Singing Spear x3)
5 Windriders, 135 pts (Scatter Laser x3 + Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 50 pts
5 Windriders, 135 pts (Scatter Laser x3 + Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 50 pts
Vyper, 45 pts = (Starcannon)
Hemlock Wraithfighter, 185 pts
2 Falcon, 310 pts = (Bright Lance x2 + Shuriken Cannon x2 + Holo-Fields x2)

: Allied Detachment (10#, 350 pts)
Autarch Skyrunner, 110 pts = (Banshee Mask + Fusion Gun + Laser Lance + Eldar Jetbike)
5 Windriders, 135 pts (Scatter Laser x3 + Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 50 pts


if you really wanted to alter this list's point costs you'd have to do some severe re-altering. like this:
3 Credits for 34 bikers in the list
2 Credits for a Hemlock wraithfighter.

Total Roster Cost: 1500

Combined Arms Detachment (40#, 1500 pts)
Autarch Skyrunner, 110 pts (Banshee Mask + Fusion Gun + Laser Lance + Eldar Jetbike)
10 Windriders, 210 pts (Scatter Laser x2 + Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 55 pts (Eldar Jetbike + Singing Spear)
10 Windriders, 200 pts (Scatter Laser + Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 55 pts (Eldar Jetbike + Singing Spear)
10 Windriders, 200 pts (Scatter Laser + Shuriken Cannon x2)
1 Windrider Warlock, 55 pts (Eldar Jetbike + Singing Spear)
2 Vyper Squadron, 120 pts (Starcannon x2 + Holo-Fields x2)
1 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 185 pts
2 Falcon, 310 pts (Bright Lance x2 + Shuriken Cannon x2 + Holo-Fields x2)

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  dusktiger on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:42 am

Lore Weaver wrote:It's okay Mike, you'd still lose because you're bad at 40k.  *zing*.

*just jokes Mike*
Razz says the guy who owns both a riptide and a wraithknight.
bazinga. lol

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  da bear on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:24 am

Reading your current list mike I can kind see where beau is possibly going with this, that rule set came out before the new eldar codex so using that same list if you dropped all the extra weapons on your bikes and leave it at 1 for every 3 you might only score about 8 or so which is a good number maybe idk haven't read the guide yet(doesn't interest me)

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  da bear on Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:26 am

dusktiger wrote:
Lore Weaver wrote:It's okay Mike, you'd still lose because you're bad at 40k.  *zing*.

*just jokes Mike*
Razz says the guy who owns both a riptide and a wraithknight.
bazinga. lol
And owning those models doesn't change anything being a bad player makes you a bad player!!!! Yup there's my zing!!

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Aegwymourn on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:11 am

Roland wrote:My point is if you're looking to save points, play as CAD and give up the turboboost bonus.

Quit looking at individual point dings.

Yes 2 points for a farseer seems like a lot in isolation..... Now look at your list. That's a STRONG list. You don't have the option of paying for Invis.... A 27 will make it illegal. Is 19 maybe high? Maybe a bit.... But that list isn't a 8-12.

Same for the tau stuff. yes that seems like a lot. What about the rest of the list?

A lot of their system depends on individual point dings Beau. That is how they are encouraging "good lists".

And you really think his list is a max comp list? I dunno if it is even that good. What does he have to deal with AV14? Or even AV13? What are all those scatter/shuriken weapons going to do vs a Decurion detachment? Or a drop pod assault list?

For funzies here is what I think a standard tau list would be and how it scores.

Commander - iridium armor, plasma/fusion, puretide
Ethereal

Riptide - Ion, skyfire, interceptor
XV8 - three members, plasma/fusion
XV8 - three members, double missle

12 Fire Warriors
12 Fire Warriors
15 Kroot

8 Pathfinders
6 Pathfinders

Hammerhead - longstrike, SMS
Skyray - SMS


1 over 55 models
3 for Puretide chip
1 for more than one vehicle with SMS
3 for taking 7 XV8 suits
5 points for taking an Ethereal and 38 models (fire warriors and pathfinders)
1 for taking a Skyray

14 comp points. And that is what I would consider a really weak list.

Now I don't think Mike and my point is to say that community comp is the worst thing ever, or that they don't have some good ideas. But to not question some of their choices is silly. Why do I pay a point for a skyray, but nothing for longstrike? Why do I pay points for crisis suits, but only on Riptides if I have more than one? Why is taking an ethereal and fire warriors not a valid strategy?

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  dusktiger on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:20 am

da bear wrote:Reading your current list mike I can kind see where beau is possibly going with this, that rule set came out before the new eldar codex so using that same list if you dropped all the extra weapons on your bikes and leave it at 1 for every 3 you might only score about 8 or so which is a good number maybe idk haven't read the guide yet(doesn't interest me)

they update the commcomp file regularly though, and it specifically picks things in the new book to tax, such as the formations. in fact, mark and beau were reading an already outdated one when matt and i started posting list ideas.

i just dont see where beau is getting that fielding the identical list as a CAD instead of a Warhost is supposed to make it better. Not taking it as a formation at all, and totally redoing the list and rearranging the bikers definitely drops the points; in fact you get to field a crap lot more bikes and not suffer any notable penalties for it.

@Aegwymourn: yea, that list is...kinda White Dwarf material. so how does a WD style list score so stupidly high on the comp chart. the only way that list gets worse is to drop a squad of pathfinders and field stealth suits.

and you're right; comp is fine and all and it does limit some of the dumb stuff. but there's glaring gaps here and there on certain stuff that is either weak to start, or is a glass cannon. Clearly they were trying to penalize farsight lists, but not specifying it better so its more situational on the suit tax makes normal lists needlessly suffer. it should have been more thought out, like the windriders are. you only get penalized for fielding them in huge quantities, or if you make every squad the bare 3 bike minimum. But the large group tax works in your favor because paying for that hit (which is a minor one) nets you more free special weapons that should charge you 1 each. and that 1 each only comes into play after you've taken the initial (number of windrider bikes)/3 number of specials.

and if you look back over at space marines, they get hit with a tax for playing to their fluff. why? because someone playing to the fluff can field the same models that someone who likes playing sternguard suicide-melta squads does. or someone that likes to field parking lots of razorbacks. is 3 rhinos worth a tax? or 1 drop pod? i could understand if its "one drop pod containing a unit of sternguard with combi-weapons" or "3 razorbacks with minimum sized squads or purchased as fast attack slots". because then you're catching them for playing those bad lists. because ten tacticals in a drop pod with a missile and flamer really dont look like something worth 1 credit.

there's alot of taxes in there that are smart. very smart. they're situational, and they prevent you from taking the stronger stuff over and over. like a credit for making any marine vehicle squadron the full 3 to gain their bonus rule. but others are half-baked and need to be fleshed out better because they harm even the weak WD lists. Which isnt the intent of course; its just that they didnt specify enough for it to hurt the specialty lists instead of blanketing all indiscriminately.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:01 am

Tom, there is what I'm looking for. Thank you. I've never said it's perfect or infallible. Your points are valid (more than valid) given the proper context.

Mike- where are you building points? All the shurikan cannons and scatter lasers on bikes. You have places you can cut points (and as Tom has noted, add some anti armor). You're simply choosing not to and saying "commcomp" hates Eldar.

I never said playing it as CAD would make it better. I suggested that as a starting point to lower your credit cost.

Keep in mind there are stuff that isn't necessarily "good" they are trying to discourage, simply because it's not Fun to play against.

Also this stuff can't account for hard counters. Make a RW list, it a going to be high no matter what you do. Now play it against anything with ignores cover.

On the hand of drop pods. Yes It should be a point per pod that drops on turn 1. I tested it and it was immediately better than the rhinos.

I get the point on Rhinos, I think its a bit much, but IMO rarely comes up. (If you're taking that many it's usually a Gladius and you're spamming them.)
Id like to see some differentiation between Rhinos and Rbacks.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  dusktiger on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:45 am

ah but there's already a tax in there for the gladius; you get nailed for every 3 dedicated transports you got for free in the gladius. so you end up paying 2 credits for every three rhinos in your battle company if you go mechanized.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:57 am

Yes it is already accounted for. That's what i said.

I was referring to something like what i run as greenwing (2 think, 2 rback) in CAD.

Would you like your list fixed? Drop the scatter laser/cannons to 1/3. That'll get you below Credits.
Take the points you save and put Brightlances on your Vypers. There, now you have some decent anti-tank.

Here, I made a list!

+++ SM 1st Co/Spearhead 1500 (1500pts) +++

++ Space Marines: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) ++

+ (No Category) +

Chapter Tactics * [Ultramarines]

+ Formation +

'1st Company Task Force
··Terminator Assault Squad [5x Any model may replace its two Lightning Claws for a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, 5x Terminator]
····Terminator Sergeant [Thunderhammer and Storm Shield]
··Terminator Assault Squad [4x Any model may replace its two Lightning Claws for a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, 4x Terminator]
····Terminator Sergeant [Thunderhammer and Storm Shield]
··Terminator Assault Squad [4x Any model may replace its two Lightning Claws for a Thunderhammer and Storm Shield, 4x Terminator]
····Terminator Sergeant [Thunderhammer and Storm Shield]

'Land Raider Spearhead
··Land Raider Crusader [Multi-melta]
··Land Raider Crusader [Multi-melta]
··Land Raider Crusader [Multi-melta]

That's 17 points. I'm over. I have 3 options:
1) I can make the Land Raider DTs, drop 3 credits and call it a day.
2) I can mention this PROBABLY isn't a 17..... It has like 20 models tops and minimal shooting. Once I have a better idea of how and why it shouldn't be a 17, I can send a recommendation to Comm Comp.
3) I can assume it's a 17 because someone is out to get me personally and it's so UN FAIR.

Maybe I'm cranky cuz I'm old and have hemorrhoids. Tom's coming across as #2. Mike you're coming close to #3. There's some very obvious things that are jacking up your credit cost and rather than change ANYTHING (you literally need ONE less credit), you want to go on about how Comm Comp is broken. Yes it has flaws, yes it still needs work. But FFS, work with it a little. ONE LESS SCATTER LASER.

Where do yiuvthink this should rate? What stuff is too high (or too low)? Are you overlooking synergies or abilities?

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Matthew G on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:16 am

I just want to put out there that I understand the turmoil that mike is showing towards the comp. Sometimes when people build their army, they build and model it one way, with little option to adjust things like weapon load outs or quantity of troops. I don't know if this is the case for Mike, but if it is, then yes I can see why he is finding the comp a little unforgiving when making a list, as he may not have the models to change much in the list to make it comp legal. I don't know.

Looking through the Blood Angel comp credits, things kinda bug me too, I just don't complain about it. Like, a stock Sanguinary priest is 1 credit (2 if in a unit with 30+ wounds). okay... I get it. Priests give the unit FNP, which can get annoying. But is every Necron unit a stock 1 point for FNP (reanimation)? I don't think so... so why unfairly hammer the priests? It's because they have that potential to be stupid crazy and OP by placing them in a large unit to give them FNP (oh, and +WS).

The way I see it, this is an event being set up by a fine gentleman who is in essence DONATING his time so we as a community can have fun and play in a tournament. Why nit pick at the rules he has chosen to run the tournament to? Don't like those rules, don't play in the tournement.....

Sorry for jacking the thread.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:39 am

+5 Matt.

I have a problem discussing what's out of whack constructively. But realize it's a living changing document.

Tom's example is great. Here are places it's too high or too low.

Is Mike's score too high? Maybe. What's too high?

The farseer? Best psyker in the game, can cancel perils, buffs entire army.... Oh and he's one a bike. No I think he's good.
The autarch gets points mainly from being the second IC on a bike (if he doesn't have a high enough save boom, ignore)

2 points for warhost. It makes it so hounding roll your runs/turboboost. You get max. Huge. 2 sounds about right.

The rest is from your bikes. Tons of bikes and almost all are upgrades. Yes they die to enough firepower. And a single one can zoom behind almost anything and pop it from the rear. Remember how our game ended Mike? Pop pop pop went the tanks? And at 1500 I'd have been taking more damage, and would've been dealing with larger squads.
Do you think it's too high? By how much? Should it be a point for every special over 1/2 rather than 1/3? 1 point for every 2 over 1/3? Maybe the points for # of jetbikes is too high. 1 point for every 10 rather than 9?

Am I making any sense here?

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Planes on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:38 pm

Just a slightly tangential question here: are we going to lock down which iteration of the living document we are going to be using prior to the event happening to make sure everyone is on the same literal page? How early/late are we going to lock that down? I don't exactly envy the concept of going through five versions of the same document to check list compliance, only to have a sixth pop up two days before the even and invalidate my list (not likely to happen, but still a concern).

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Aegwymourn on Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:09 pm

@ Matt - I don't think anyone is suggesting anything other than looking at these rules in the context of trying to help our community. Maybe the people in Australia find these will work well for them. Maybe we will too. Either way neither we are not suggesting that Mark use a different set of rules. Otherwise we would be posting in the actual tournament thread. What we are saying is "Hey we looked at the packet and noticed some stuff. Do people think it should really be costed as much and why?"

@ Beau - Yup I'm a 2. I know that there are pieces of the game that are broken. We all know that (why I took a break and picked up infinity). What I'm trying to figure out is why the costed some things the way they did. By doing so we can tell what kind of games of 40k they are attempting to encourage and if that is right for what we want to play.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:45 pm

Tom- agree 100%. That's partly why I guess I'm a little snippy about the jetbike thing. It's very obvious they do not want pplbtobtake all upgrades on their jetbikes. Combine that with the easy fixes (drop a SC from each squad and it's at 16 points, plus he has 30 points to throw at some brightlances).

Your tau list tho, puzzles me.Before digging in, I would have assumed most of the points would be from the Riotide, the commander and a bit from the suits. Totally not that.

The Puretide chip is good. Not sure about 3 points. Maybe 2. 3 is close tho.
5 points for the ethereal is insane. It's assumes you'll have all 38 firewarriors and pathfinders in a nice pieplate around him. Count the FW only. maybe not even that.
Riptide is fine.
What's with SMS? I know it Ignores Cover but it's ap5?! I'd say ignore.
# of suits. 3 credits for 7 seems steep. I'd think 1 @ 6; +1 per 2 additional is more in line myself.

I honestly can't say what they are trying to go for. I put a Farsight list Mark came up with thru at 1750. 18 credits. That seemed reasonable. This doesn't seem like it'd be near that, but add a Riptide and they're similar is points and 18-16 on credits.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:35 am

ander: missile pod; missile pod; target lock; drone controller; Talisman Of Moloch; Warscaper Drone; marker drone; marker drone. 212

XV104 Riptide: counterfire defence system; velocity tracker; Earth Caste Pilot Array. 235
XV104 Riptide: early warning override; velocity tracker; ion accelerator; twin-linked fusion blaster. 210

3 XV8 Crisis Team: 3xCrisis Shas'ui (fusion blaster; fusion blaster); Bonding Knife Ritual. 159
3 XV8 Crisis Team: 3xCrisis Shas'ui (burst cannon; burst cannon); Bonding Knife Ritual. 129
3 XV8 Crisis Team: 3xCrisis Shas'ui (flamer; flamer); Bonding Knife Ritual. -- One dude has Vectored Retro Thrusters104
3 XV8 Crisis Team: 3xCrisis Shas'ui (plasma rifle; plasma rifle); Bonding Knife Ritual. 159

4 Drones: 4× Marker Drone. 56

3 XV88 Broadside Team: Broadside Shas'ui (velocity tracker; twin-linked plasma rifles); Broadside Shas'ui (velocity tracker; twin-linked plasma rifles); Broadside Shas'ui (velocity tracker; twin-linked plasma rifles); Bonding Knife Ritual. 273
3 XV88 Broadside Team: Broadside Shas'ui (counterfire defence system; twin-linked high-yield missile pod); Broadside Shas'ui (counterfire defence system; twin-linked high-yield missile pod); Broadside Shas'ui (counterfire defence system; twin-linked high-yield missile pod); Bonding Knife Ritual. 213

This list is 18/20-1750.

6 for 13 XV8
6 for 2 Riptides
6 for the Broadsides (1 for the second unit, 1 each of 3 man units, and 3 for a unit with HY missiles)

You add a Riptide to Tom's list and they are both 1750 ish and 18/20. Does not compute.
The Farsight list seems to pass the smell test to me, but the Fire Warrior versions seems like it should be more in the 13-15 range. (~9-11 if you don't include the second Riptide).

Is there something we're overlooking with the SMS or large # of FW with an ethereal? I can see how like 4 units of 12 Daw surrounding and ethereal in cover can throw out an ungodly amount of shots..... I just don't see it happening in practice.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  System Commander on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:30 am

The other thing to keep in mind is that this is just one way to score comp for one tournament. The next tournament may be completely different.

I love anything that makes you think outside your standard list. You might decide you really, reallly need that Invis slinging sorceror, but you have to make sure hes gonna make a big difference cause youre sure giving up a lot of points.

Another thing it really does good is just give you an outside perspective on your own army/list. I havent seen any examples that werent at least partially accurate.

As well, these documents come out of a highly highly competive Australian tournament scene. Theyve been running something for Fantasy for a really looooooooong time and its worked great. There just may be combos, even battle brother tactics.were not seeing that when combined create a crazy situation? I cant speak on the Tau situation above but Id look for a list that was used that created something like that.

Hey.. just like the Highlander im looking forward to it. I may bring something other that Chaos as well to.score.a better.comp. My Grey Knights come in at like a 1 or 2 depending what inqusitional allies i bring. Thats tough to pass up considering a khorne list needs some painting and will score higher.


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Re: how to break the CommComp!

Post  Roland on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 pm

Things I like about it, and a few observations.

1) a common scale: i can rate something 1-10 and you can do likewise but they may never line up. When one of us says that list is a 17/20 on Comm Comp we realize what that should be.

2) We have to realize this was also intended to shape the game. There is a reasoncertain things may be "allowed" but are prohibitively expensive.

3) Anyone famaliar with sabermetrics and baseball? This is one way to do it, like Wins Above Replacement (WAR) in baseball. Lots of people don't like WAR because you can't figure it out in your head, and it destroys some preconceived notions (like the value of relievers). That said it can't be the only metric. Otherwise you use it like a drunk uses a lamppost (for support, not illumination).

4) You have to at least TRY to use it in the manner intended. I'm on Weight Watchers. By their points cost, technically I can eat nothing but a box of fudgesicles and I should be ok. 2 pts each, 24 in a box, I get 50 a day . I'm still 2 points under! But we all know that's not what they intended. In the example above, yes, I can take 3 Land Raiders in the Spearhead. It's 15 points if I do. It's pretty obvious they don't want you taking it. But you can if you really really want to. That said, when it doesn't work, you can't blame the system.

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Re: how to break the CommComp!

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