Community solution to the Wraithknight

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Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:16 am

Well, never before has it come to this, but.

The Wraithknight is *so* undercosted for what it does, that it, in and of itself, breaks all of Warhammer 40,000.

Short of disallowing all Gargantuan or Super-heavies, the following is the only solution I can imagine.

Wraithknights should be costed appropriately. I propose a 300pt "Hunters of the Warp" tax for any league games. That brings the Wraithknight to a still under-costed, but at least semi-reasonable 595 points.

With it's ability to shoot all it's weapons, anywhere, be unkillable, and riverdance through tarpits, I firmly believe that 595 points is still a bargain.

At 295 points, however, this one T8 6 wound, neigh immume to poison 3+ / 5+++ (FNP due to garganutan) beast can single handedly wipe out an army with little fear of being harmed.

Even if you hit it with the "D", chances are it's got a 5++, it'll only take a small number of wounds, thanks to the "D" nerf, and warlocks can still heal it (same psychic power as before... but Eldar have some nice psychic buffs)

====

Thanks GW, for not paying attention to what your rules do.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Roland on Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:49 am

Sounds reasonable, for now.

With the rumblings about Imperial Knights, this will likely be revisited.

Is there something about Eldar? Didn't we have similar convos when escalation was introduced?

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:44 pm

I would agree. 595 puts you at the same points as a Scythed Heirodule, which is already good. But instead of str 10 ap3 guns you get str D guns and a str D melee weapon. And then all the silly eldar synergy craziness on top of it.

Really though, Superheavies and Gargs belong in apoc. I have always been of that opinion. I think GW is doing this because escalation failed to sell. They are making the LoW codex units so good everyone basically has to play the arms race game.

As of right now my eldar are going on a shelf. Before they were really good. Now they are just bonkers.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:16 pm

Roland wrote:Sounds reasonable, for now.

With the rumblings about Imperial Knights, this will likely be revisited.

Is there something about Eldar? Didn't we have similar convos when escalation was introduced?

its definitely eldar. mostly because 40k is a shooting game, and elder just seem to get all the best toys. strap those on a fast, super resilient chassis and all of a suddenly its gonzo.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Roland on Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:37 pm

Someone hit the nail on the head.

Take new codex.
Jetbikes, Wraithknight, and Distort weapons follows rules from the previous dex.
Possibly Knight uses points from New book.


Perfect balance.

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Re WraithKnight tax

Post  Commander James of the Ul on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:02 pm

I personally think the tax is outrageous. The wraithknight should only be 100pts, and they should be able to be in squads of 5. And the Heavy wraith cannon should be assault 6 str D. And on top of that all tact marines should be at least 40 pts a piece. The Eldar are a superior race and therefore should table all other armies be the end of turn 2. LOL

But seriously the WraithKnight is just crazy. I've been rolling dice for a couple hrs on this IK vs WK and there is no competition. 5 out of 5 times the WraithKnight murders a Imperial Knight before it even come close to charging into close combat. Two Heavy Wraith Cannons make a IK disappear in turn 3 every time. Or roll a 6 on the D chart and ya dont even get an invul save and your IK is auto dead.

Beau's idea of using old dex rules might be more reasonable. The darn thing is more vulnerable to grav and poison. that way. Just my two sense and Im not in the league so that means this whole rant doesn't even matter. meh

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Roland on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:24 am

I think a huge part of the issue is the Lord of War slot. All lords of War are not remotely equal.

Class one- ~<400pts. These are your former HQ choices, and more than 4 hull points or smaller superheavys like the knight. To a large degree, they can be handled by a lost without its own LOW. They only really become an issue when taken in quanity (Adamitite Lance, )

Class two~400-600 points. These are your baneblades and the like. In my experience, they eat class ones for breakfast. Can be beaten by a non LOW list, but a very uphill battle unless they have the right gear. You really should let your opponent know about these, as the experience can lead to no one having fun.

Class 3- titans and the like. Model dominates the board, physically and mechanically. The Revanant is a good example. Basically impossible to kill without one of your own.

Look at the wraithknight. It eats class ones. Marks example has it basically equal to a baneblade/fellblade. Is that correct? I dunno. It could be less. It could be more.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  dusktiger on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:12 pm

i think it also depends on the wargear options you give it:

originally it was 240pts.  what's the new pt cost?  (havent read the new one yet)
did the suncannon's statline change? it used to be a 48" Str 6 AP 2 heavy 3, small blast.

if it's still around 250pts base, and the suncannon is relatively unchanged, just make that one the default wargear, and say dual wraith cannons are a 150pt upgrade, and the sword is a 75pt upgrade.

that way the non-Destroyer variant is about 250pts, the Wraithcannons variant is 400pts, and the sword variant is 325pts.

this puts the sword one in a comparable zone with a Knight-Errant, with a 45pt discount because he wont come with a ranged weapon, so this will be used up giving him his limit of 0-2 ranged shoulder guns.

the dual wraith cannons one will now be in the zone with true super heavies.

the one that keeps him still reasonable stays at the 250 area near eternal warrior chapter masters and the like.

by comparison, revenant titans are 900pts, and 9 HPs, with FA 12.
phantom titans, the really big world killers, are 2500pts, 24HPs, and FA 13.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Roland on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:39 pm

He's 295 now. From what I've read, any of the weapon options (all free!) Will kill an imp knight. That said I think the only answer is playtesting it.

And you're hitting the other part of the issue, durability of MC/GC vs walkers/superheavy walkers.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:50 pm

With any of his weapons he rolls an IK without a problem. He should easily be in the mid 500s to lower 600s and still be amazing. Initiative 5 D weapons on things that move 12" a turn is scary as shit, and can stomp its way out of tarpits.

In addition to having all the protections of a Garg, so no ID/poison/etc.

The only thing that will do well against them are Grav-Cents.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Roland on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:56 pm

Is there anything in the class 2 that does well against them? I reckon he eats baneblades. Any of the FW daemon do anything against him? A stompa? Tesseract vault? Warhound titan?

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  System Commander on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:33 pm

Well, at a distance he has a good chance of taking out Ann'grath thg 8, 8 wounds.. flying gargantuan creature. He can get his flying defense .. Im assuming the weapons cant get him because they are template? Cant remember if gargantuan have any restrictions/bonuses for flyers.

If An'ggrath can charge then the odds tip a little better... BUT... 888 points ( if i remember correctly) .

Points wise he doesnt measure up. Ive got the IA upgrade for the daemons.. but will have to check at home later. I dont aee the GUO doing much.. although the KOS and LOC might have good sneaky moves available?

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:52 pm

Single shot so hits fliers on 6s. Either way when he drops to glide for a turn before he can charge he'll eat two D weapons and then if the eldar player is smart move so you have to charge through terrain making you init 1, unless you have grenades.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  System Commander on Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:06 pm

Yeah.. so the 888 pointer will need some good luck to survive. And.. how does he do against a pair?

I feel bad for the Eldar players.. GW really put you guys in a shitty predicament.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

Post  Roland on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:42 pm

This is me off the cuff. Marks suggestion is a good starting place. When you start comparing.... I'm not sure 600 is enough. 295 is a steal. I'd say it's worse than a Revanent but not by much.

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Re: Community solution to the Wraithknight

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