community comp? thoughts?

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community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:29 pm

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?55120-Community-Comp-A-system-used-in-Australia-that-has-revived-a-tournament-scene

I'm just gonna leave this here.

I'm gonna try to throw a few list thru the spreadsheet while at Cigar Lake. Just off the cuff, the worst list I own (Necrons) would score a 19, I think.

This could easily be implemented, doesn't restrict lists (although I noticed a few LOW were banned). For first round simply rank by credits spent, then Swiss system.

Thoughts on this?

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:37 pm

FYI: I had theory hammered a Serpent spam double WK list at 1750. It's at 22 pts (and thus banned) before I do HQ.

All of the following are at 1750
For those who have played my greenwing and Deathwing, they are a 3 and 9 respectively.

My Khorne daemon list (2 GD, 2 DP, 3x15 bloodletters and 2x10 flesh hounds) is a 12.

My Waaagggh Krippletraks list is a 6.

My ravenwing list (Sammy, lib on bike with PFG, 3 full RW sqds, RW command sqd and RW bikes) rings in at 11.

My usual ultramarines are a 6, my strike force ultra is a 5.

Overall I spec'd out 12 lists I own or am in the process of building.
Avg was a 7.66
2 were over a 12 (Crons and Khorne daemons)
2 were between 8-12 (Deathwing and Ravenwing)
6 were between 5-7 (Orks, both CSM, both Ultras and Guard)
2 were at a 3 (Greenwing and GK)

I think this is pretty accurate as far as those lists go.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:10 am

Those australians are always on top of all things comp related.

I think the document looks fantastic.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:15 am

This would be fairly easy to implement.

A typical tourney would be 3x20 battle points, 30 points comp, 30 points sportsmanship, 40 points paint (160 total)

Issues: they recommend not allowing list with more than 20 comp credits. While you can build any list, I can see certain lists not making it thru. My Necrons list is a 20 on the nose,
Stelmach's eldar is an 11/19 with ability to get Invis.
Drew's eldar is 15/23.
The "I'm not here to make friends" eldar I came up with is 22/30.
The farsight list Mark came up with awhile back is an 18.

While they don't change any rules for 2++ or Invis, they have changed how you get invis. If you pay the 8 comp points, you roll normally. If you don't, you have to reroll invis as if you already had it.
As best I can tell, FW is considered standard, but many LOW are banned (Stompa and the like, interesting how the new wraithknight will affect it)

Could even work for casual stuff (Having a gamesday round robin, max comp 14, or for playoffs max comp 16 or whatever).

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:21 am

And then.. we'd have to have a 0 comp point tourney .

I'm all for it. I like the idea of how it works for tournaments, where you get points each round the lower your score is. Theyve been ranking armies down under for tournies for years.. and its always sounded great to me.

For the league.. it'd be a little tougher to implement .. maybe just by making sure your opponent knows your score ahead of time.. or implementing a 20 point max as a default.. with of course the exception to play whatever you want if your opponent is game.

All looks good though!

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  dusktiger on Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:15 am

takes a bit to wrap your head around how the C1/C2/C3 system works but i think im starting to understand how they get their math.

0 comp would be super hard! and be a super shitty list.  world eaters couldn't do it if im reading all of this right, for example.

if you wanted a 0 comp score, here's a quick idea of what you cant take that's basic stuff:
no drop pods; none.
no land raiders.
max 3 dedicated transports of any kind. some you cant take at all, such as wave serpents.
no flyers.
no more than 3 vehicles/walkers with FA 12.
no more than 2 vehicles/walkers with FA 13.
cant go over 2 IC on bikes/packs/etc because the total combined wounds between them total 4+
no fortifications.

chaos specific:
no havoks.
no maulerfiends
no obliterators.
no spawn.
no ahriman.
no lvl 3 sorcerers.
if im reading right, DP are ok unless they fly, and/or are psyker lvl 2+.

space marines:
no grav.
no white scars IC. so no white scars, cause they didnt allow unbound IIRC?
no tiggy
no marshal helbrecht. (is he actually good enough to be worth a credit? never read his rules)
no honour guard.
no biker command squads.
no eternal warrior CM if you give him art armour and either a bike or pack.
no sternguard.
no centurions.
no more than 8 bikes total.
no thunderfire cannons.
no devastators if you play IF/CF.

eldar:
no farseers.
no spiritseers.
no serpents.
no dragons.
no harlies.
no wraithguard. (wraithblades are okay though)
no spiders.
no vipers.
no grav tanks.
no war walkers.
no wraithknights.
no wraithlords.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Matthew G on Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:30 am

Tallied the last list I played against Marks chaos, and I think I scored a 12...
The highlanders tournament list I ran scores a 7

So if we were to use this comp, a value for the tournament is set at a number and you have to be below that number?
I'm not understanding the percentage of points section of the document though.


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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:50 am

We say, for example max comp is a 20 credits, with 30 tourney points counting toward comp.

If you played a 20 credit list, you get 0 tourney points. If you play a 0 credit list, you get 30 tourney points. A 12 ( your list) would be 58% of max, or 17.4 points.


Mike - you're going a little overboard, but you have the general idea. If something has no base cost listed but is C1, the first unit is free, then you start having to spend points.

Its be nice if they had an app to figure this out, or an add-on for Army Builder/Battlescribe

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Matthew G on Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:54 pm

Ah, so that's what they mean by that.

Well, I for one am okay with this style of composition tracking.

I have noticed, that for the most part our Meta isn't about the "Bring your best"... We dont have players running all knight lists, we don't have players running oodles of Wraithknights except for one a while back (Cough... Dallas), and we tend to keep the cheese to a reasonable level.
But having a composition "go to" guide I think is just perfect, because it helps keep everyone closely on the same-ish page.

As for a Comp 0 army... Yeah, that's too much in my opinion. I don't even know if I could make a list that's comp 0, but setting a max comp limit for up and coming tournaments is great, lets do it! lol

I wonder how hard it would be to adapt this format to battlescribe? Might have to nudge the battlescribe gents and see what their take on it is...

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:02 pm

You've hit it on the head. It's more handicapping. The benefit I see is while we have a overall local meta, there are several sub groups and the meta can differ a lot. Personally I tend to fall in the 5-7 range. I'll wager Dallas (for example) does not play that low. Yes Dallas, were gonna make fun of your lists:)

Actually, I'm fairly sure this could be converted to a single game format.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Matthew G on Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:07 pm

You say yours are mostly 5-7 comp lists.
I think mine are more that 7-12, with 12 being my heaviest...



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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:24 pm

Most of mine run 5-7, but my Necrons list (bought, need to build) is a 20 on the nose.

I'd imagine most run in that 8-12 comfort zone, I'm curios as to what peoples lists tend to run.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:03 pm

My old stand by chaos list with Kharne/Jugger Lord, heldrake, berserkers etc. came in at a 4. I've played some allied daemons which bumps it a couple depending how many fliers it had. My favorite chaos list with 2 raiders, khorne lord and nurgle lord with plague marine and berserkers is low as well, like 5 ish mainly for the double raiders.

The khorne list i made up is an 11.. and thats mainly from multi units of spawn, bikes and flesh hounds.

Glancing through my grey knight lists they are pretty low as well.. stroke squads and terminators mainly for me.. prob be about a 3-4.

Im keen to tying this into league games. Something like if you have a 0-9 you get +1, 10-15 -0, 15+ - -1.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:40 pm

If i wanted a 0 point worldeaters chaos list, it wouldnt be to hard.

Jugger lord, kharne, 3 units of zerkers in rhinos, pred, vindi, hellbrute, possessed/bikes/raptors/termies.. and done. As long as i stay under 55 models im good. It wouldnt be devastating.. but itd be fun!

Lets go.. 0 lists!

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Aegwymourn on Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:59 pm

Hmmm, no forgeworld? Doesn't seem to be in any of the approved lists. That is a bit of bummer.

Other than that for the most part seems fine to me. Most of my GK lists score decently well. I lose a couple of points for a lvl 3 libby for my generic list. I lose a fair number if I go Driagowing which makes sense. My Bugs just lose points for MC and not many at that. Perhaps some if I want to field my flying tyrant (i don't =P). Oh and a point for the toxicrene.

Tau lose a bunch and Eldar lose a bunch. Those are much more competitive lists though so makes sense to me. Although why you would lost points for a skyray is a little odd. I could see maybe spamming them?

Like the big hit for Invis. I cannot stand that stupid power.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:57 pm

I'm unsure about FW with this. It doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to figure out what fits where.

That wacky CSM list with double Dragon and kharn manning the icarus quad gun? 11.

I was texting Dallas, his elder is an 18, no worse than anyone else's I've seen.

Robyn how bout +/-1 for every 5 points diff in comp score? So if a 15 beats a 5, it's 8 for the win, -2.

0 comp is actually easy. My highlander list, trade a drop pod for a rhino, and trade the storm Talon for a two LS squadron.

1750 dark angels. I can get an 11. Anybody beat that?

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Aegwymourn on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:05 pm

Don't be to hasty with 0 comps. My tyranids almost never can score a zero. If I take a tyant and any two other mc I get a point. Any venomthrope, which are required to have any chance to survive shooting, two points. Biovores are a point. Toxicrene is a point. I'm not saying I'd have more than 6-8 but zero is a tall order unless I spam gants and stealers which is pretty bad.

I like the comp system overall but like any it is a little goofy.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Lore Weaver on Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:17 pm

Is there a TL;DR version? I'm a busy man. :-)

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  System Commander on Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:30 pm

Oh no, I dont think anyone's being hasty with anything, thats for sure. This is juat a cool tool to mess around with. I dont want people tonuse them, Im curious to see what some of them would look like. I keep mentioning 0 comp because the lists will be pretty ridiculous.. and i think would pose some neat match-ups.

I dont think anyone would strive for a 0 comp...i think they would all be frustrating lists to play... BUT the possibilities are pretty fascinating from an entertainment stand point.

Back in "the day", most touraments had a comp component. It was usually things like "more than 25% troops, +1 point" or "didnt max out heavy support options, +1 point". There would usually be 10 points available .. and this would come standard from GW in their tournament package.

I know its a touchy subject for players as a whole.. but ive always loved a comp component.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Aegwymourn on Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:28 pm

Lore Weaver wrote:Is there a TL;DR version?  I'm a busy man.  :-)

A group of players in Australia came up with a fairly extensive set of comp rules that has helped them rebuild their tournament scene.

edit: stupid autocorrect


Last edited by Aegwymourn on Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:34 pm

Yeah I dont think I'd expect anyone to play a 0 comp list except maybe on a dare.

I think the goal of this is more or less ranking the list vs each other and saying "nothing above this point". With that point having all the cray Cray shit.

Mark- it does comp on a codex by codex basis. You pay comp credits for different stuff. 0 would be a weak list. Something at Adepticon or BAO would be a 30 or so. This particular setup bans lists with over 20 credits.

The number of credits you spent determines your comp score for the tourney. 20 credits gets 0, 0 credits gets 30, and everything else gets a certain percentage. The Cron list I made and showed you is a 20, the farsight list you came up with awhile back is an 18, etc.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:06 pm

They have a seperate document for IA. Looks like it's in beta testing.
Not seeing some new, experimental rule stuff. (Xiphons).

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:23 pm

Roland wrote:They have a seperate document for IA. Looks like it's in beta testing.
Not seeing some new, experimental rule stuff. (Xiphons).

Looked thru this last night, it has most everything, but some is missing and it seems very conservative.

A fire raptor is 5 credits for first, 7 for second

Sicarans are 1, +1 if they take ceramite

Mortis dreads are 1 (only if they take AC or LasC)

Loth is 5 ( more than Tiguris or Ahriman), *15* if he takes Telepathy.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:46 pm

Loth should be more. Tiggy just had good odds to get what you want. Loth automatically gets it.

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Re: community comp? thoughts?

Post  Roland on Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:10 pm

I'm not sure he's a 5 without it. But the ability to guarantee you get Invis? Yes 15. And if you try and do Centurion star yiuvwill be severely limited.

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