November 2013 Highlander Tournament

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Spamus Eatus on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:19 pm

Inclined to agree with Pascal here. Yeah I did have the wicked awesome Riptide conversion that I'm really proud of, but that's mostly all my army had going for it, painting wise. My Tau army is still a total repaint WIP, I was expecting to take a hit on painting from that but instead I was one point behind best painted (Dallas) That does seem a bit odd now that I look at the spread of numbers. Perhaps for next time it might be worth looking at changing up the ratios? I do like the idea of the representative single fig but I feel it is better to look at the army as a cohesive whole. Aside from that, a good first shot at running a tourney!

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:27 pm

To be fair from my side of things, the ENTIRE PAINTING METRIC was up for viewing for everyone in excess of 2 weeks prior to the event. Everyone seemed to go "lawl, magnets" and ignore the content of what was posted up, however.

Planes wrote:Painting Score Sheet:

The painting will be split into two sections: army presentation and army representative.  The army presentation will look at the basic level that you have painted all your models, where as the army representative will be a single model of your choosing which the bulk of your painting score will sit.  The net result is that if one person brings an army that is completely bare plastic except for a super amazing representative, they will stand a chance of winning compared to someone who brought an army with three color minimum and an average representative.  That being said, if someone brings a fully painted army AND an awesome representative, the other two are still likely to be knocked out of the running for best painted.

Army Presentation:
Check One Box:

  • 0 pts, Bulk of army is Bare Plastic
  • 5 pts, Bulk of army is Primed
  • 10 pts, Bulk of army is Mostly Painted, but large areas are unfinished
  • 15 pts, Bulk of army is Fully Painted (at least three-color standard)


Army Representative:
Painting, check all that apply:

  • 1 pt, Painting is Uniform -- Not a mix of schemes, styles, and looks (except where appropriate) compared to the bulk of the army.
  • 1 pt, Clean Basecoat Colors
    -------------
  • 1 pt, Details are painted such as eyes, buckles, and jewelery.
  • 2 pts, Details are painted well (clean, have highlights)
  • 2 pts, Hand-Painted Details, that are well executed, have been added.  Ie: unit markings, banner artwork, blood splatter, dirt and mud.
  • 2 pts, Artistic.  Banners, markings, and details are hand painted to an incredible degree.
    ------------
  • 1 pt, Decernable Highlights/Shading.
  • 2 pts, Layers of Highlights.
  • 2 pts, Clean Highlights.
  • 2 pts, Beyond Basics.  Highlights are blended, shaded, or layered well; beyond the basic highlighting techniquest of dry brushing and inking.
  • 2 pts, Masterful Blending.  Highlights have been masterfully blended, shaded, or layered.
  • 2 pts, Overall Appearance.  Over all appearance is amazing!  Everything works great together to create an awesome scene.

Basing, check all that apply:

  • 1 pt, Based/Detailed
  • 1 pt, Extra Basing
  • 1 pt, Highlights
  • 2 pts, Special Details

Conversions, check one box:

  • 1 pt, Minimal.  The representative has some elementary conversions or basic swaps.
  • 2 pts, Minor.  Representative is a multi-kit conversion, including head and weapon swaps.
  • 3 pts, Major. The representative has some difficult conversions using things such as putty, plastic card, drilling, sawing, minor sculpts, etc.
  • 4 pts, Extreme.  The representative consists of an extreme conversion, including scratch built, full model sculpt, or entire other models included on it's basing for the representative to krump while waiting between game phases.

Other, check all that apply:

  • 1 pt, Display base for the army
  • 1 pt, Something Special.  There is something above and beyond about the representative's painting, the display base, a conversion, or the basing (ie: movement trays are based/highlighted)
  • 2 pts, Magnets.
While I understand your grievance, I can't exactly be going through and just stop everything else to go through person by person to see if everyone has read the rules and materials provided ahead of time, as that is something somebody attending should be reasonably expected to do. Had this been with the Path of Victory, that would have been totally understandable, as I kept the Path system under wraps until the day of, but I got the scoring system out early, at the front of the thead for everyone to see.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:42 pm

Fair enough Tom, and everyone had lots of fun, it was a great event. +1 for giving us something to tease Dallas about.

I don't think we really understood the painting rubric until we saw it in action. I'm inclined to agree that the results it yielded did not seem to match the artistry on the field. A take-away for next time, with a few tweaks, I think it'd be a fine rubric.

Tournaments can be a bit of a challenge to run, and considering this one was your first event, you crammed a lot of action into one event. Made for a great day, but on your first outing, every "play" can't be a "touchdown".

Good effort Tom!

Also.... goooOOOOO RIDERS (Hamilton vs Sask us nutso crazy)

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Paz on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:50 pm

fair enough Tom, I can see where you are coming from. One question tho. You watched me choose the unit I wanted, after you asked mid-game which one I would put forward. I clearly didnt know about the basing (I was running on 3 hours of sleep, keep in mind). John suggested the stalker, and you agreed. So you knew you were gonna score me low, and you didnt say a word. And I had mentioned my doomscythe, which was right there as well, and fullfilled all your criteria.
Why did you say nothing? Are prizes based on how well one knows rhe criteria, or on skill?
If not skill, why do painting comps exist? And why did a non-converted, FW ork warboss win best mini?
These were the questions I was left with at the end of the day.

I enjoyed the tournament, and I liked the path to glory, and I think you did well on your first run, I just felt that the painting comp was skewed, and felt slighted when I realized you let me choose the wrong model when the right one was right there.


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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:56 pm

Wait, that was indeed Forgeworld? I must attest, I don't spend much time in the Ork section of that site.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:58 pm

Well I'll be damned, just did a quick flip through the catalog. I had worked under the assumption that it wasn't, as I was trying to zip along quick and people were mid match and everything, I had no idea that was stock resin.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Paz on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:05 pm

I can't fault you for that Tom, you didnt know (and dallas is the king of omissions Razz) all I was saying is that when asking people what their main fig is, and they appear confused as to which to choose, it doesn't hurt to tell them its based on basing, painting, converting.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:08 pm

Things to mind for next time, I suppose.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:08 pm

Dallas, how many boyz are in that battlewagon? *laughs*

(See Tom, we've got Dallas teasing material for months... He'll get a good dusting.)

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:34 pm

we should probably just move on, i have questions about how best general scores were tabulated as well but i don't think it helps to pursue it at this point.

i have a few laptops/tablets that could be used for next time and i would lend them to anyone foolish enough to run a tourney for us ungrateful wretches Smile

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:50 am

I'm coming late to the party guys so you'll have to bear with me. I just got on a computer today but I really want to chat about a few things before we lay this dog to rest.
 
First, I loved the event, the scenarios and composition rules were great. I had great games, including a real barn burner against Gavin in the first round coming down to a tie breaker.
 
I have to say I was tricked by the painting rubric. I've played in so many events over the years..  dare I say close to 100, but Ive never come across a painting score like you had. Thats fine, change is great, but I think when making such a massive change from the norm, it really needs to be highlighted. But even past that, Im still confused why I scored so low. Yes, the first 15 points I can see.. but even the representative unit score has me curious. You had asked which model or unit you want to represent my army. I was like, oh, a unit.. I guess the terminators. I chose them becasue I though they were best painted, and with 10 of them.. looked pretty big and nasty. They are painted, highlighted, based, I have a banner I hand painted.. and have someminor conversions. Nothing heavy, but Id still say they shojuldhave scored above average. Now, it wouldnt have made a difference in the overall scheme of things, but Im just curious why they got such a low score.
 
Now, the best general/overall. Weve talked about the issue with doubling up on prizes.. especially when there wasnt a lot of prizes and no sportsmanship. Overall, general, painting, and a couple door prize/honorary prizes. From my calculations, at a minimum we would have had $255 based on the 17 people there and paid. The den usually kicks in a bit extra depending...  so thats a nice chunk of credit to dole out. How were the prizes divied up if you dont mind me asking..  I guess I just dont know why you think it would be a good idea to double up.. Im guessing Mark walked away with at least $150 in prizes, probably more? Everyone is so much happier when it gets spread around a bit..  even tripling up on door prizes..  and of course..  Sportsmanship!
 
But.. now into the last and final issue. The hunters circuit award points. The double up on awards has also given Mark a big chunk of circuit points. He was probably already on track for winning it for this year, but giving over most of the points for the event when it does effect things that the rest of us are involved in, I really have to wonder why you didnt just ask one of us who were there if that's a standard practice or not. THere was a lot of time between the end of the event and the giving awards, you could have asked any of us for some quick advice..  Im sure even Mark would have said.. no, split em up, I dont need more Warhammer credit! Maybe we'll have a discussion in another thread about the circuit point distribution, but just asking one of us should always be an option. I can understand wanting to do it all yourself, but alot of us have been around for so long..  we can always help out or answer questions if needed.
 
I really loved the format going in, and I know your second event will be much easier..  but I just wanted to address a few things.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:45 am

As I have said before, it wasn't so much that I thought it would be a grand idea as the thought simply didn't occur to me until I was doing the math at the end of the event. I believe most of my posts in page one of this thread say this as well. Half way through doing the math I found myself having to stop and check my own thread to see if I had indeed put such a caviat into place, and seeing as I hadn't and that the event was already done, I was bound by my own guidelines.

As for prize distribution, there was 4 major and 6 minor things. General was 105, overall and painted were 55 each, fav painted was 50, and all the minors were 15 plus a physical object of some sort (blu ray, candy basket, SM captain).

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Roland on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:30 am

My $0.02....

System Commander wrote:I'm coming late to the party guys so you'll have to bear with me. I just got on a computer today but I really want to chat about a few things before we lay this dog to rest.
 
First, I loved the event, the scenarios and composition rules were great. I had great games, including a real barn burner against Gavin in the first round coming down to a tie breaker.
I think THIS is the important takeaway. Everyone had fun. I'm ticked because I didn't have enough free time.


 
System Commander wrote:
I have to say I was tricked by the painting rubric. I've played in so many events over the years..  dare I say close to 100, but Ive never come across a painting score like you had. Thats fine, change is great, but I think when making such a massive change from the norm, it really needs to be highlighted. But even past that, Im still confused why I scored so low. Yes, the first 15 points I can see.. but even the representative unit score has me curious. You had asked which model or unit you want to represent my army. I was like, oh, a unit.. I guess the terminators. I chose them becasue I though they were best painted, and with 10 of them.. looked pretty big and nasty. They are painted, highlighted, based, I have a banner I hand painted.. and have someminor conversions. Nothing heavy, but Id still say they shojuldhave scored above average. Now, it wouldnt have made a difference in the overall scheme of things, but Im just curious why they got such a low score.
Yes, Tom could have said "Hey, you'll get more points with that model, than this one..." Given this was his first time running a tournament, I can see why this probably slipped his mind.

That said, he let everyone know that he was changing the paint rubric, posted it seperate from the main rules, and did so WELL in advance. I wasn't playing and *I* knew about the changes. To quote Tony Stark in the Avengers, "Am I the only one who read the material?"

If you don't agree with your score thats one thing. I am terrified when I score painting, because you have a colorblind dude trying to decide what is better at subtle highlighting. I just dont think anyone can claim "I didn't know" about the paint scoring.
 
System Commander wrote:Now, the best general/overall. Weve talked about the issue with doubling up on prizes.. especially when there wasnt a lot of prizes  and no sportsmanship. Overall, general, painting, and a couple door prize/honorary prizes. From my calculations, at a minimum we would have had $255 based on the 17 people there and paid. The den usually kicks in a bit extra depending...  so thats a nice chunk of credit to dole out. How were the prizes divied up if you dont mind me asking..  I guess I just dont know why you think it would be a good idea to double up.. Im guessing Mark walked away with at least $150 in prizes, probably more? Everyone is so much happier when it gets spread around a bit..  even tripling up on door prizes..  and of course..  Sportsmanship!

This is kinda a dead horse. He didn't do it intentionally, and when he realized it'd happened he immediately went back to check. He knows what needs to be fixed and has said so.
 
System Commander wrote:But.. now into the last and final issue. The hunters circuit award points. The double up on awards has also given Mark a big chunk of circuit points. He was probably already on track for winning it for this year, but giving over most of the points for the event when it does effect things that the rest of us are involved in, I really have to wonder why you didnt just ask one of us who were there if that's a standard practice or not. THere was a lot of time between the end of the event and the giving awards, you could have asked any of us for some quick advice..  Im sure even Mark would have said.. no, split em up, I dont need more Warhammer credit! Maybe we'll have a discussion in another thread about the circuit point distribution, but just asking one of us should always be an option. I can understand wanting to do it all yourself, but alot of us have been around for so long..  we can always help out or answer questions if needed.
As far as circuit points are concerned, if someone scored best overall and best whatever.... they've been getting the points even if they didn't get the prize for it. Yes Mark is in first, by a good margain (I still have to input the scores from this tournament.) As far as that goes, Mark has entered every tournament except one (which was small), and of the ones he did enter, he has won all but one. Frankly he should have a big lead. We can easily fix that tho, as I know how much he spent at the den on Remembrance Day:)

Tom: my overall take is the event had a few hiccups, but overall went very well. You identified what the issues were and have already made plans to fix them. You did an awesome job. You should be proud. The issues that people are curious about can and should be addressed, but maybe over a schooner at BP's.
 

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:50 am

Roland wrote:
Tom: my overall take is the event had a few hiccups, but overall went very well. You identified what the issues were and have already made plans to fix them. You did an awesome job. You should be proud. The issues that people are curious about can and should be addressed, but maybe over a schooner at BP's.
 
+1

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:54 am

Hey Tom.. people overwhelmingly had a great time at your event, you should feel very happy about that. Running events/leagues is a 100% thankless job.. in fact you will usually hear about all the bad stuff.. and rarely the good stuff but your getting lots of.praise so feel proud.

Everything suggested and critiqued is to help you out for your next event..nothing more. So dont feel defensive, just takr in the suggestions and use them as you see fit. Were people confused.. yes. Did you make it clear in your post how things were going to be.. yes. But, clearly there was a breakdown so just take that into account for next time and try to remember that sometimes gamers are dense. Especially if youre breaking from the norm.

Last suggestion.. if your running an event and givng out general, painting, and overall.. overall should logically be the highest prize. Its a combination of everything.. general is typically only battle points with any additions you make. If your making general or painting the biggest prizes.. youll bave to let people know.

Ps- you missed my scoring knquiry.. pm if youd like.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Roland on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:10 am

Hmmm a painting first tourney..... That's be different:)

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:15 am

I don't have the score sheets with me at work, so that will have to wait a while.

However, a thought just occurred to me. Al is likely to work the same day as a tournament, with the events landing on Saturdays and all. Maybe next time I could just bribe him with lunch and get him to run around with the clip board for painting scores.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:26 am

Oh no.. i got the message quote breakdown.

My main point is the event was great.. but if your breaking from the norm.. overall, painting, prizes.. just take a slme special effirt to address it so people arent surprised.

Giing back and reading it.. im really surprised there wasnt more discussion unless everyone missed it. Alot of us have seen similar score sheets before.. but always to score an army.. we are easily confused !

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  System Commander on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:29 am

Ive gotten Al to do it several times.. he loves it.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

Post  Planes on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:42 am

Ok, so we've come up with some solutions already.

When doing something different, post things up well in advance. Then, roughly a week before the event, make lots of noise about it.

Tertiaries should play off of general game play, rather than trying to make people do things differently. The Path system rewarded lists that lined up well with them, but didn't give anything to those who didn't. The system can be made more elegant by having it tied to things that people would already be tracking, namely tie breaker objectives and the like.

Delegate painting scoring. It provides more time for the TO to run the rest of the event and potentially operate the bye list.

Set up a hierarchy of exclusion for the core prizes, and close the gap between prize support between the 3/4 by a margin. Have a number of smaller side prizes available as well.

Surprises can be fun, but not all that practical for events. Announce tertiaries in advance along side everything else.

If the event is objective heavy, bring additional objectives. Tables 6-8 got some really piddly objective markers to work with in the end.

Calculate scores digitally.

Place TO paper work on the side of the table accessible without having to snake around behind three sets of active games.

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Re: November 2013 Highlander Tournament

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