1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:42 am

Aegwymourn wrote:If there was anything someone didn't like like I would love the criticism as well.

Good event, too bad more people didn't come. <3 structured standard events!

Two things: (not just your event, but recent & upcoming ones)
1) I don't think digital signups are working. I'd almost rather get people to pay up-front. One day, some day, list management is going to be an issue.
2) We need a cleaner solution for army lists. "Lists must be submitted to the TO only X days before the event and will be publicized Y days before the event. People who signup at the door lose Z points towards their ??? score" (Something like this???)

--

BAO format & missions are tight and super balanced, really promotes TAC lists. Beau had me on the ropes as I was low on scoring, He'd expertly taken out my Portal Glyph on Turn 2 before it could get me free dudes, then killed two scoring units, which really made it an uphill battle from there (almost lost! Beau needed it to end a turn sooner). BAO missions mean that we both had to keep an eye on Kill Points, and could just follow the objectives around.

I love how you did scoring too. 10 points win, 5 points tie, 0 points loss + whatever you scored in the match for a max of 20. 20's that good, round, magic number. (I forget how the BAO missions manage the Warlord traits that grant extra points, is it Primary only?)

Anyway, good event. Too bad we didn't have just one more person, then we'd've had 8 (as Aidan was hanging out to balance it to an even number).

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Roland on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:01 pm

1) we need to be able to pay on signup. Priority will always go to ppl who have paid, then who have signed up digitally, then walkups (who pay more). Make this the only way to signup, so Darren has less to do. What we'd need past that, is to make sure we advertise so ppl not on the forum can enter.

2) you have the solution right there mark.
X = 14
Y = 7
Z = ??? Do we wanna make this so someone with an unpublished list can't still win, or so he has an uphill battle?

The only complaint I have with the BAO scoring is someone who eeks out a win in primary and secondary gets the same as someone who decisively wins both. That said I'd have to look at it more for a solution, which may not exist.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:03 pm

Roland wrote:The only complaint I have with the BAO scoring is someone who eeks out a win in primary and secondary gets the same as someone who decisively wins both. That said I'd have to look at it more for a solution, which may not exist.

Our game was an anomoly, because it went from you being way ahead, to you being almost tabled, with me having Kairos, a single Oblit, and 10 cultists left on the table.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:16 pm

I agree that digital signups are an issue. Without having money up front there isn't any reason for someone to not signup and drop out before the event (not a jab at anyone, just an observation). I don't know how else we could do it, but it is something to be resolved.

For the army lists it was just something I thought would be interesting to pre-submit them after seeing that article on 3++. We will have to figure out a better solution to that. Although I don't have another event to run for a while.

I will admit that the BAO scoring isn't perfect, but then again none of the ones I have seen are  Razz. I just know that we haven't played that format here yet and wanted to give it a whirl. I really like the fact that with at least 4 objectives you have to bring quite a bit of scoring which at 1750 can be hard to do (like Mark's list).

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Roland on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:19 pm

Not saying BAO scoring is wrong, just if there is a way to fix things, wanna look at it. I like the missions.

Anyone know how to setup a Paypal link? Would be fairly easy.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:24 pm

I'm not sure publishing lists is always the way to go, unless you want to. pre-submitting them for sure, but do we really want to get into the Meta of X is bring Y, so i'm going to bring Z? Look at how stressed Robyn got with Dallas' comments Smile

For a lot of folks, it won't be an issue, because they bring what they have. or want to play, but some people have a lot of armies and can tailor. And then it turns into a "wait until the last moment to post lists so i can see what everyone else is bringing" ...thing.

Missions were good, scoring was good. Thumbs up to peoples that showed up.

Kudos to Dallas for braving the washroom after me.




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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Roland on Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:31 pm

I think publishing the lists is okay, as long as its all of them, and as long as NOT submitting is major point drop. But there's the rub.

And def need to say thanks to Tom for running this, and Dallas and Mike for the rides.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  System Commander on Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:38 pm

My stress came from .. hey.. heres a list thats gonna cause some debate.. im going to tell people im taking it.. but im not. But i am.. it was confusing and i ws hoping to cut any issues off quick.

I settled it with Tom and Dallas and its cool.. but it was a direct result of posting lists ahead of time. I wanted to come but some family things have kept me in the maybe column for awhile. If there was slot issues indefinitely would bave backed out a long time ago.


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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  System Commander on Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:52 pm

Annnd.. this was the secons tournament where i stayed up till 1 the night before getting just in case. My plague marines are all painted now.
But.. i think my vote would be to not publish lists unless people choose to do so.. but still have the bonuses available for early submission.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  miv305 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:27 am

I think part of the reason why attendance was so low is the state of the game is in real flux right now. I know I wasn't interested in coming and having to play lists that were half ForgeWorld, ScreamerStar or lists cherry-picking units out of 3-4 different books (not saying it's what everyone there did but it's legal and therefore a possibility).

It's certainly not the fault of the tourney organizer but I really think some restricitions on lists and combos are needed before you'll see bigger turnouts.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  superdeuxlol on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:10 pm

Its a fear but to be honest it really does not happen. In fact I think every game I played came down to the last turn or two. The only thing I feared was entering the washroom after Mike.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Paz on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:42 pm

Mike- to be fair, Dallas was just messing with ppl, I went to see the tournament, and none of the lists were especially cheesy.
I think a lot of players here realize that shitty cheese lists will get them a reputation of being dinkus bags, and a lack of fun games. Even Dallas, who talks big, doesn't play all the insane stupid lists he talks about (even when he does he rarely wins, right dally-whacker? :p).

The internet has a habit of giving this view of 40k, that most players, given the opportunity, will powergame the shit out of lists. Which just isn't true. Something I am noticing is that, since gw has for some time showed they are not building a game for tournaments, most clubs and tourneys are creating house rules to mitigate silliness, while still allowing fun. Which I think is just grand, giving us all more of a hand in making our game fun. Just because you 'can' be a dick and cheese it, doesn't mean you should, especially since this is a very personal game, not a faceless game of "LoL" or some such.
And before people start complaining that gw should put these controls in place: they don't, they won't, stop complaining about it, because it ain't gonna happen. We are the only people in control of our game here: caring about the national to international meta is silly, few if any of us play in tourneys outside Saskatchewan, and, with so many different peeps running the (quite prolific these days) tournament scene here in Saskatchewan, it's up to us to police our own game. Which I think everyone is doing quite well!

Tl:dr- don't worry guys, there are few power lists here, and we control how silly they get by being part of the community, in taking a hand in how it develops.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:44 pm

+1 Paz

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  superdeuxlol on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:53 pm

I thought about that list so much! My win against mark on the wed before the tournament with the ork list made me heavily favour taking the orks though because it was a lot of fun. But definitely +1 paz. I think we self police enough.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  miv305 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:13 pm

Just to be clear, I mentioned ScreamerStar as it's a lame weblist that people are familiar with, I wasn't referring to Dallas specifically nor the list he posted earlier in the thread.

As far as self-policing goes I agree that for the most part we do a reasonably decent job, except inevitably someone realizes that he just needs to go a little further down the power gaming path to get a distinct advantage, which in turn causes the next guy to go one step futher, etc.

My biggest issue is that we've suddenly started letting FW be part of our tourney scene, which I disagree with. It's poorly balanced (hi Sabre Weapon Platforms or Super RipTide!!), often has rules that are outdated and cause confusion, and are heavily biased towards certain factions (compare the extra options Space Marines get vs Dark Eldar...). I don't have issue with seeing some FW stuff in a league game here and there, where games can take a little longer and should be a little more relaxed, but I do find it to be an issue when I have to spend 15 minutes reading up on all the rules my opponent is using despite the fact that I own a copy of his codex and should be able to get rolling right away. That's what it used to be like and it's something I feel causes issues which have driven some people away.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Planes on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:25 pm

I think FW stuff has started to be allowed in our events around here largely because, surprisingly enough, a lot of people around here have FW stuff of their own. I think we place group orders for stuff from there 2-3 times a year. With the prevalence of models across a good portion of player's armies here, including some TO's, I don't think it is surprising that people are allowed to use them.

I know people kept getting thrown off my my artillery piece not being a vehicle, but that didn't change the fact that I landed myself firmly in second to last place.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Aegwymourn on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:28 pm

miv305 wrote:My biggest issue is that we've suddenly started letting FW be part of our tourney scene, which I disagree with.  It's poorly balanced (hi Sabre Weapon Platforms or Super RipTide!!), often has rules that are outdated and cause confusion, and are heavily biased towards certain factions (compare the extra options Space Marines get vs Dark Eldar...).  I don't have issue with seeing some FW stuff in a league game here and there, where games can take a little longer and should be a little more relaxed, but I do find it to be an issue when I have to spend 15 minutes reading up on all the rules my opponent is using despite the fact that I own a copy of his codex and should be able to get rolling right away.  That's what it used to be like and it's something I feel causes issues which have driven some people away.

There are actually very few things in FW that are overpowered. I've killed Mike's sabre platforms a bunch of times since you can assault them and they are stationary. A single guardsman isn't very tough in CC.

+1 for Planes as well

Also the rules for the R'vana (riptide alternate) are experimental and not allowed in anyone's tournament that I am aware of.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Roland on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:37 pm

I'm pretty firmly in favor of what FoB is doing. It's not comp really as you don't get points deducted for taking Screamerstar or 3 heldrakes.


FW largely came in because ppl wanted it. The issue now is the rules for your Tyrants legion is spread over 3 book. Sorry, Mike not buying the "FW is broke" statement. Some are yes, but no more so than Heldrakes or nightscythes or wave serpents, etc. It adds to the whole, "you need how many books to play that army?" Feel.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Planes on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:56 pm

We can always try a spin on the whole "only two books for an army" thing sometime, not counting the BRB. I know that Dark Harvest is hard to run without the base Necron codex, can be done, but highly restricted, as a large portion of it just cites you back to the core codex.

The more I think about it, it comes across as a fun list building exercise. Want a super fort? That's one book against your 2 book max, so no allies for you. Want Dark Harvest? Either you have no allies/Necron allies, or you run the limited list that has full entries in IA12 plus some allies of Desperation. Want to run Inquisition with one of the big toys from escalation? I hope you like warbands!

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  dusktiger on Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:57 pm

you also have to remember that FW is official content and you can't just ban it anymore. its in all the white dwarfs, the models are even showcased in some of the standard codexes with references to the FW website.  and they're also making effort to rewrite the blurb in their books to make people understand you dont have to ask if you can use them, just make provisions to have the datasheet for the units available for reading when playing your opponent. 

and as mentioned, the majority of FW content is more balanced and reasonable than what we see coming out of many of the 6th edition codex.  the only time you see something that might be excessive is when its a new experimental unit that is still being playtested.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  miv305 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:08 pm

@Planes - I like that idea, would tone down some things, but not be as restrictive as my old-man-doesn't-like-kids-on-his-lawn approach.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Roland on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:15 pm

Explain Throne of Skulls then Mike S:) besides by that logic we cant "ban" Escalation or Stronghold Assault.

Until Games Workshop puts out something saying FW is offical and is 100% legal, it's not going to be seen as such.
And frankly that's never going to happen, so we just have to do it ourselves.

Voth, I'm curious, what FW units do you find broken and in what ways? Not looking to argue, wondering if your list is similar to mine.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  superdeuxlol on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:29 pm

I frankly find the forgeworld biker boss broken in the painting score...
After facing many fw units most seem appropriately costed. Mikes units this weekend were good but not too good and Toms pylon might as well have been just a traffic pylon most of the game. I have heard thudd guns to be insane but haven't actually seen any.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:34 pm

Back in my Rifts GM'ing days, I didn't let my characters roll Tattoo Warriors from the Atlantis book, even though there were allowed O.C.C's by the "rules" still means it has to be okay with the group, in the end, who are playing for funzies. :-)

Each tournament will be different, I imagine, and league games will continue to be between the opponents. Dan and I played a game of 40k vs 30k || 30k clearly has a leg up, but for a league game, I'm always up for the challenge.

---

On Natfka the posters there with the argument, "The rules say I can take superheavies now, so I'm just going to do it and all events must allow them to now because it's in the rules" thing drives me nuts. The guys on Forge the Narrative said it really well, "If a tournament wanted, they could ban Tau because they won the last event, it's well within their rights."

If GW made balanced rules that didn't invalidate $100's of dollars of purchases every 2 months, people wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

Imagine a dude that bought a White Scar's army only to have Codex: Inquisitor completely invalidate his list.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:36 pm

Roland wrote:Voth, I'm curious, what FW units do you find broken and in what ways? Not looking to argue, wondering if your list is similar to mine.

Sabre Defense Platforms are *very very* good and *very very* cheap, and *very very* scoring.

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Re: 1750 - Standard Tournament - December 14th

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