ToonCon 2013 Results

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ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:31 pm

thanks to everyone for coming out! Final results!!

Best Overall
Dallas- 101
dana- 91
Tyson - 75
Ben- 75
Zach - 60
Gavin - 59
Adam W- 58
Adam E- 55
Dan- 54
Kyle- 53
Ian- 45

Best general (Battle Points from Primary and Secondaries)
Dallas- 51+10=61
Tyson- 47+5=53
Adam E- 33+9=42
Gavin- 30+6=36
Adam W- 31+3=34
Dana- 28+6=34
Zach- 28+4=32
Ben- 27+4=31
Kyle-29+1=30
dan- 23+3=26
Ian- 16+2=18

Best Sports
Dallas- 3 votes
Dana- 3 Votes
Gavin- 3 votes
Kyle- 1 vote
Zach- 1 vote
dan- 1 Vote
Adam W- 1 Vote
Tyson- 1 Vote

Best Appearance (included bonus from Best Painted voting) Thanks to Tom L. for judging the painting.
Dana- 54
Ben- 41
dallas- 37
Dan- 27
Ian- 27
Zach- 27
Adam W- 23
Kyle- 22
Tyson- 22
Gavin- 20
Adam E- 13

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  System Commander on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:06 am

Congrats Dallas and everyone else!

I wish I could have came but realized at the last minute I had a scheduling conflict and needed to be somewhere before the event ended. I discovered this at 130 am, after staying up to paint 2 ghost terminators, 2 quad guns and a bunker.


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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:38 am

Hindsight is 20/20, things I'd have changed.

I'd have prob dropped the VP/BP thing, there was low level confusion.

First mission I'd have changed the relic to 3 VP, and changed the deployment of all obj to be in no man's land. Likely would have changed deployment type to pitched battle.

Second mission worked well, maybe switch deployment type to hammer and anvil.

High ground was worded.... Awful. I should work for GW. Slight tweaks needed to Heavy Metal and Fast Recon.

It would be rare if it came up... Because we can rarely do 2000 anyways. But I'm inclined to say no to future double force org. I don't think anyone is married to it, but alot of stuff seemed to feel "wrong". Double FOC seemed to have an advantage over single.

Overall, I think it went well. I know we had a lot of ppl who couldn't make it, but it happens.

Oh what did everyone think of "no sportsmanship." Bring it back, or let it die?

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  da bear on Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:23 am

Bring it back, I also agree with no dual force org in the future. That being said that I had awesome time tbanks again beau for running tbe turny

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  superdeuxlol on Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:11 am

I think having sportsmanship provides a different feel to a tournament. I felt as though not having it was alright at Tooncon and there should be tournaments like that here, but I also feel as if having sportsmanship scores should be the default for most of our tournaments.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  System Commander on Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:30 am

I really believe sportsmanship or some type of opponent scored comp or something should be part of every event.


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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  GingerBalls on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:22 am

System Commander wrote:I really  believe sportsmanship or some type of opponent scored comp or something should be part of every event.

Agreed.

Edit: Thanks again, Beau!

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:30 am

party like its 1999.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:38 am

Sportsmanship will be back, likely similar to the doubles tourney

What is the opinion on comp? Personally I don't like systems like astronomicon that punish ppl for taking deathwing or world eaters, or a dredd mob.

Maybe just have your opponent rate the list/build 1-5 with some guidelines? I dunno if it'd be needed or wanted tho.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:36 pm

i don't think you can ever really rate comp and please everyone. I understand what they are trying to do with comp, but really, that is what force org charts are for. and all you really do is end up punishing some armies while giving others an advantage. which doesn't solve anything.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:41 pm

I will say that if you have Sports and dont have a seperate Comp score. a lot of folks end up scoring comp with sports. -2 or -1 for being a cheesy bastage.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  System Commander on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:06 pm

Yup.. exactly its subjective but i dnt mind seeing a line sportsmanship sch as.. "do you like your opponents list?"

Its minor, subjective, but one small thing to think when your decidong on a third daemon prince or riptide.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  superdeuxlol on Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:23 pm

Making it a negligible amount might not have the intended effect.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  GingerBalls on Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:35 pm

superdeuxlol wrote:Making it a negligible amount might not have the intended effect.  
2nd. If you're going to have a sportsmanship score in any fashion it should effect the outcome of overall placement or else, what's the point?

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:24 pm

The issue overall with sportsmanship is sandbagging. Giving johnny douchebag a 0 on sportsmanship probably feels good after he curb stomps you, but realistically, that person should be consistently low on sportsmanship? You'd think? That's not whats been happening.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:57 pm

I am torn on the subject of sportsmanship and composition scoring. 

Composition scoring I think is generally a poor way to change a certain aspect of the game. Personally if you want to balance things I would prefer a more direct approach. Something as simple as "no more than 2 hellturkeys/riptides/wraithjerks per person/team/whathaveyou". That would make more sense to me than trying to write up a set of rules that will have far more unintended consequences than what you think.

Sportsmanship is a beast of another matter entirely. If there was a way to score it objectively I would be all over it. However as Beau pointed out there isn't any good way to do it without leaving it open to abuse from the players. I don't think there would be anyone here who would but the option is available.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:15 am

I dislike "hard" comp like Astronomicons for the reasons given. As Bidyk said, its just a more rigid FOC, and actually makes WAAC players worse... (since I can't get full points for comp, I'll need full battle points!!)

A soft comp (rating your opponents list between 1-10, or having them judged by the organizer) is preferable, but you have multiple issues. If opponent scored, its another opportunuty for sandbagging, and the issues that go with it. It done by the organizer, its another thing on the pile. In particular, if we adopted ANY graded comp by the organizer, preregistering would be a requirement..... I'm not sure thats a bad thing.

Just like painting or sportsmanship, one mans trash is anothers treasure. I may think that list is a 9/10 on the destructo meter, but Robyn may think its a 5.

There is also the fact of where does comp fit in? Building a good list is a SKILL, and a sign of good generalship.... so maybe under best general. But taking a list your opponent will enjoy playing against is also a good skill... sportsmanship? Maybe half in each.

Dallas had a good suggestion for handling both Sports and Comp. I'll let him explain it when he has time.

And as a note on sandbagging here. It has happened. For the most part under the 10 point system everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) got 9-10. Round 3 tended to be 8-9. Certain players would always be on the low end of that, and on an occasional game get a 0, 1, 3, etc. The whole point of the check list is I could, after a few tournaments, go to Johnny Douchebag and say "You never bring your templates, you are measuring front to back on movement, and aren't rolling where your opponent can see." What ended up happening is people would just rank it on 0-10 and not check anything off. So when Johnny Douchebag pissed someone off.... he has a 1, and I have very little idea of what happened unless I was called over.


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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  System Commander on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:48 am

I think my post was misinterpreted a bit.

My point about having a small 0-2 points was strictly as a comp incentive. 0 - You didnt like the list, made no sense, was no fun to play against; 1 - Decent; 2-Very fluffy, fun to play against, all sorts of assorted units. This is only a toll to slightly encourage a perceived list adjustment based on what you think might be fun your opponent. If your creating your list and thinking.. hmm, do I add the next Heldrake or maybe, just maybe I'll add some.. raptors! Again, it's minor, but the points are available to make your list a bit more fun or enjoyable. It is definitely something that Iwould consider when list building.. I'd be going for the points as much as possible. Again though, subjective.

I have always loved a balanced or enforced comp score though. I loved astronomicon's scoring parameters, although they might have been on the extreme side of things. But encouragin you to think outside the box, use different units, I love it!

I think sportsmanship should always be included.. in every event. There are very little incentives we have to try and keep people on track unless they know it can effect the outcome of their placing. Lets face it, 75% of people aren't going to need incentive to play a fun game and have a good time.. and will probably score fully all the time. .. But there is a chunk of people that do need it. Even then, it doesn't always work. An example with no names. My buddy played in an event last year, great guy, super nice.. and always scores high on sportsmansnhip. He played against another player who routinely scores low on sportsmanship, they had some rule disputes and evnetually turned into an uglier game and he ended with a 0 on his sportsmanship. It cost him first in the event. So even the nicest person out there can lose a game ion sportsmanship. Its very subjective.

What the best system is though, definitely isn't one. I've used all sorts of variations over the years and nothing clearly works. What I did like the best was a simple 3 or 5 point system. Very basic things like: Did your opponent measure and roll dice good- 1, Did they take turns in a timely manner - 1, Were they fun and enjoyable to play against - 1, Were rule disputes solved amicably and justly with no bitter feelings - 1, would you go out of your way to make arrangments to platy this opponent again - 1. Something simple and not worth a lot, but something you need to take care of if you want to win an overall placement. In most games, players should always receive an average of 4-5. The players that are contantly struggling with issues, whether its arguing about rules, gloating, stalling, rolling dice funny, etc. will get low scores. If your battles points are say 20 for a win, with 5 for painting and 5 for sponsmanship, you'll be out the running quickly if you aren't pulling your friendly weight.

That's just my preference though. Ive played in events with no sportsmanship and had a fine time. Ive actually preferred the no sports events to the no painting events.. but even then my favorite events have always been the the 3 combination.

Ive never had an issue with sportsmanship scores making a significant impact though, enough to change the results on a tourmament. Typcially, the people that are finishing amongst the top have steadily been getting good sportsmanship scores the whole day. If it did happen though that a score was tanked on the last round that would cost someone wining an event, I would definitly talk to the person submitting the score to find out what happened and be responsible for their decision. I have discussed low scores in the past to see what happened, but there has never been a shock. What I have done and seen done in the past is displaying the sports scores you gave your opponents for each round. At the end of the day, the scores are calculated, awards given out, you can let everyone see the spreadsheet where things were tallied. IN each round you'd see your battle points, and the sports score your opponent gave you. People then have to take responsibility for the points given out.. and you know what games were most troubling. It can be an eye opener for some people as well. If you look at your scores and see .. wow, I got only 1-2 points in every game, and those same opponents gave other people 4-5, what am I doing wrong? And you can ask and get advice.. and then.. MAKE CHANGES. If you hear from 50 people they don't like the dice you use, or question how they roll, or anything.. you spend $7 and buy new dice. You address people's concerns and show your trying to be a better player to go against. If people take the time to tell you an issue, and you take the opportunity to changeor address it, that's bascially saying to them.. "Yeah, I thanks for the advice for F-off."

And inevitably, if you decide to tank someone's sportsmanship score on the final game because you think you might win the event.. you now have to answer for it. I have no problem telling people the sports score I gave them or why.

Again, these are just ideas and no one option will ever be perfect. Having events that mix things up a bit is a great way to go. With the different views of people on the board and the various individuals running events, we're going to see a whole gambit of different ways to score and it will be interesting to see how it pans out. If everyone take sthe perspective of running an event how they would like to play in it, you'll see some interesting things.





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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:18 pm

When I'm talking comp it's more pie in the sky. I don't think we need one overall. For 2000+,double force org.... I think it's needed, but I'd almost rather just redo the FOC.

You make a good point about sportsmanship ans making it public. Def something to consider.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:17 pm

Please no comp. I like it when people aren't punished for moving around our local meta.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:35 pm

To clarify, I'm totally cool with "did you enjoy playing this list?" As part of sports or whatever.

I think we need comp at higher level, because after having run a 2000 pt, multiple FOC the differences in lists are too great. But at 1500-1750....,nah.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  superdeuxlol on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:03 pm

How many lists used double foc? I don't remember playing any and I was only single foc.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:10 pm

I had double, Adam Wildman did. Tyson. Nit sure past that.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Lore Weaver on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:47 pm

Roland wrote:I had double, Adam Wildman did. Tyson. Nit sure past that.
Better make sure we punish the people who placed in the lower percentile *cheeky laugh*

Making comp subjective is a tool for people to just randomly tank other people's scores. Making comp rules simply shifts the meta in, typically, union tended ways. -- I'm not a fan.

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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

Post  Roland on Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:35 pm

I agree with you to a point Mark.

My list was double, but drop the second Aegis line and it fits completely in a single. Most people elected not to deal with double force org, or use it minimally. Adam and Tyson went full tilt with it. That's not a bad thing, but it comes across as 2 different rules. The impression I got was most would have prefered single FOC.

I hate FOC as it is. I'd prefer something like Fantasy that scales up evenly. 3 HS at 1750, 6 at 2000 is just a lousy way to do things.

Its worse with allies etc. If you take a single force org/no allies at 2000, 2 hq is the limit, but double force org/allies 6 is ok?

I don't think the solution is comp. Comp is a band-aid on a badly implemented rule. The force org (single codex) doesn't break down til about 2500 for most armies, throw in an allied detachment and a fortification and you're easily at 3000-3500. Any higher than that you're playing Apoc. Double force is isn't needed, and even if it is, the split should be at 3000-3500.

Basically if I HAD to do ToonCon over again, it'd have been single FOC, with sports similar to the Doubles tourney. What would be ideal is sports to be organizer rated.... but thats not possible.


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Re: ToonCon 2013 Results

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