Stunned Flyers

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Stunned Flyers

Post  Darksfear on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:20 pm

So I was having a match with Adam the other day and my flyers got stunned. Adam then proceeded to turbo-boost his jetbikes into the spots where the flyers were going to have to move. His belief was that since the flyer can only move 18" and can't turn that when it came to the flyers movement phase it would be destroyed. Not being able to find anything to define what happens in this case in the flyers rule, I said fair enough and we moved on.

The problem for me comes when I combed the rulebook for the declaration that a model that cannot complete its movement like that is destroyed, originally in an attempt to discover if it states if the model is destroyed (hence the vehicle would blow up) or simply removed from play bypassing the prereques for an explosion I.E. the wrecked or exploded vehicle conditions on a flyer.

In the end I couldn't find anything in the rulebook or FAQ at all to support the idea that the flyer WOULD be destroyed either, leaving this instance as something of a limbo as far as the rules are concerned. In fact the only thing I found that was similar to this was the skimmer rule stating that if a skimmer is forced to end its move overtop of enemy (or friendly) models, it is moved the shortest distance until it is no longer overtop of them. That's when I checked back to flyers and saw that they cannot "voluntarily" move slower than 18". This brings up the possibility that if the flyer cannot turn and cannot be moved 18" that it might actually move less than 18" as far as it can go as a necessity. That's as far as I got for the closest possible solution rules wise.

Thoughts? If anybody knows anything I missed I would be very grateful.

P.S. I just thought I'd mention as well that models coming in from reserve that cannot get onto the board are no longer destroyed but instead moved so that the model is completely on the board and then it can't take certain actions for the rest of the turn (run, shoot, ect). This is just an example of the non auto-destruct nature 6th edition seems to have. (don't ask me what happens if the reserve models can't get onto the board because enemy models are in the way though, cause thats another instance I couldn't find lol)

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Planes on Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:52 pm

I have thus far killed two fliers this way, by stunning and dashing to where they will fly. I believe the important precedent you are looking for is listed, of all unseemly places, under the rules for The Relic. As explained in The Relic, the Relic token may not move more than 6" in any phase, and a flier must move a minimum of 18" unless it is in Hover mode, crashing the ship and causing all kinds of horrible things for those embarked. The other largely applicable rule to note here is on page 8 of the BRB FAQ, which states that a flier who has suffered a Locked Velocity result is not allowed to switch back to hover mode and act as a skimmer instead.

So, between those two instances, being stunned is just about good as dead for a flier if they are facing off against a highly mobile army, or is a bit too close to the enemies' lines. If nothing else, there is one minor redeeming quality in that when a flier crashes, you center a 5" blast template over it and scatter, giving you a halfways decent chance to put some pain on whatever you crashed on.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Guest on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:50 pm

Well, Tom is my source for that maneuver, but I will now take a moment to look into it.

The first piece of this I would say is on p.80 BRB 'Flyers and other Models' "Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models. However when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models."

The second piece of rules to consider I would say is p.74 the Vehicle Damage Table 'Crew Stunned' "The Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of the next turn and cannot move unless it is a Zooming Flyer. In which case it can only move 18" and cannot turn."

So I guess now we have a conflict. The Flyer can only move 18" and cannot turn, but the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models... what to do? Looking to the start of the book, we have a few ways to deal with contradictions.

'The Most Important Rule' p.4 (hmm no mention of having fun, but anyways) "...If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice... 1-3 Player A gets to decide, on a 4-6 Player B decides." But that is to save time, so not very useful for this discussion.

'Basic versus Advanced' "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting, and close combat as well as rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31... Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon... or because they are not normal Infantry models (lets say Flyer)... Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules For example...."

Hmm so neither rules in question are basic rules, so cannot use that either... now to try to find a basic rule with respects to walking over other models.

'Models in the way' p.10 "A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase. To move past, they must go around."

And now we have a rule precedence. The rule that a model cannot move within 1" of an enemy is a basic rule that happens to be repeated for flyers in their section. The vehicle damage table is an advanced rule that forces the flyer into a specified movement. The advanced rule should therefore override the basic rule and the flyer should move the 18" forward.

The 2 best resolutions I would image would be to simply allow the flyer to stop over top of the offending models and allow them under the flyer for this turn, or to displace the flyer a minimum distance so that it is not over top the offending models.

As such, Tyson, I apologize for my janky downing of your flyers.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Roland on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:23 pm

I'd agree with either assessment Adam, it's seems weird otherwise

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Darksfear on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:44 pm

Its not a problem Adam, I'm not offended that you used that trick. I was just working off the assumption that the 5th ed scenario of unplaceable models = destroyed was still in effect and was perplexed when I couldn't find it in the 6th ed rules. All I was looking for was clarification is all.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Guest on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:05 pm

kk, good to have it resolved.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Lore Weaver on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:16 pm

Like a cop shutting down a kids lemonaid stand for not having a permit. You're not wrong...

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:04 am

I wouldn't apologize Adam, I know of several tournaments that have ruled that the flier is destroyed. It currently doesn't have a clear ruling in the rules specifically what happens. I think fliers are powerful enough that the risk that they don't have somewhere to land would kill them is just one of those things you have to deal with.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Guest on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:19 am

Well, after the book review, I think the rules as written suggest that the flyer's existence above the board space should take precedence with the clause about advanced rules > basic rules that I never noticed before today.

As for a rules as intended, I think that all forms of spawn frag are silly and should not take place. Flyers are above the game space, they are not colliding with anything (assuming that the flyer is not stunned by another flyer who is directly ahead by 18") so there is no sensical reason for the flyer to be removed.

As for the apology, he had 2 Jets, that I crashed with a jetbike squad. It felt like cheap kills. Well actually I boosted to crash one, then stunned the other. I asked to redeem a take back to crash them both (they were close enough that the 4 bikes could'a gotten both), but it was denied. Later Tyson used a take-back to kill my Farseer, so I traded him take backs and we had the other Crimson Hunter removed from play. I guess an apology isn't necessary, I just feel like its an overly dirty trick, especially with a jetbike army that can go 36" in shooting phase with most of its units.

I similarly feel that if you box a landraider and the termies inside cannot be placed, room should be made or they should just be locked in combat.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:04 am

It wrecks and explodes, it's respectably clear in the book.  Flyer can't end it's move on enemy models, if it's forced to move less than 18", it's wrecked.  Wrecked fliers explode.

This is why 'nid lists were created to kill cronair,  you use 4 tervigons and some ridiculous number of guants so there's no space for them, and they crash and burn.

The flier should've wrecked on the bikes though, although may have scattered away.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Darksfear on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:24 am

The problem with the wording is that it does not say if the flyer is forced to move under 18" its wrecked, its simply says a flyer may not voluntarily move under 18". As far as the wrecked thing goes the only place I've seen the book say a flyer crashes from movement restrictions is the relic scenario brought up before. That's why its such a mess.

Basically, if they were nice enough to just say in the flyer rules if it can't move properly its wrecked we wouldn't have any issues here lol.

Oh and Adam, there isn't really any apology needed at all even going past what has been mentioned so far. I'll mention them to you when we get together for our next match but I found a whole host of things messed up in our last game. Honestly the big reason I was checking into this matter in the first place is because I was picking through the main rulebook with a fine tooth comb in an attempt to get my head screwed back on right after such little playtime in the past 6 months.


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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:49 am

Page 80, "If a Zooming flyer is forced to move less than 18" in it's own movement phase, it is automatically wrecked."

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Roland on Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:46 am

The rule is explicit, clear, and leaves no room for interpretation.

It is also stupid, non sensual, and a poopy head.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Guest on Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:05 am

Lore Weaver wrote:Page 80, "If a Zooming flyer is forced to move less than 18" in it's own movement phase, it is automatically wrecked."


Wow, somehow I missed that line.... so many rules... I am now remembering it form the start of 6th when people were talking about killing flyers with Grabbin Klaws mounted on masts/cranes for Orky Battlewagons. Laughing 

Actually, does this really solve the issue? The flyer is not being forced to move under 18", it is being forced to move exactly 18" and over top an enemy. If it were displaced laterally or forwards, then it would have moved 18" or more still and not have to bring up this rule and become wrecked. What I would like to know is whether there is a rule in 6th saying that if somehow a unit moves within 1" of another unit it dies?

Would people be up for house ruling the case of stunned flyers? Or shall all stunned flyers be wary of being within 3 feet of a wind rider jetbike squad? Or shall we fall back on 'the most important rule' --> d6:: 1-3 Player A decides; 4-6 Player B decides. Or are people pretty happy with Stunned Vehicle being ~= Vehicle Explodes for flyers?

If others like the idea, I would be up for a house rule saying that a stunned flyer is moved the smallest possible reasonable distance so that it can place normally, or that it is simply allowed to overlap enemy troops for one turn.

On the other hand, my army for this league is going to be Eldar Jetbikers, and if someone can take advantage of this, they surely can do it best.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:15 am

There's a rule saying you can't end your move within 1" of enemy models.  The standard is that you change your move such that you aren't within 1" of enemy models.

In the case of this particular flier, you are explicitly not allowed to go further than 18", thus, you are forced to go less than 18", and you wreck.  Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Edit: No house rule is needed.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Planes on Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:19 am

It also says that you have to go straight forward, precluding lateral movement. It's very precise with where the flier needs to be at the end of it's movement.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  System Commander on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:06 pm

Tom did use it on me to take out my heldrake in the winter playoffs.. I did not feel like it was broken at all.

I think its a legitimate and great strategy for dealing with flyers... AND It always has me thinking of.facimg.now. However.. Up against bikes and stuff that wouldnt really help. If you can stun it and are willing to commit units under its.landing spot.. Go.for.it !


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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Planes on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:22 pm

The two times I've thus far managed to pull it off were against fliers with really good anti-stun tech, too, which really threw me for a loop. Heldrake shakes off stuns on a 2+, and Night Scythes shake it off on 4+. There is also the flip side that whatever is crashing the flier stands a good chance of taking it to the face, and I'm pretty sure I lost at least a few from the grounding squad each time.

Given how crazy good fliers can be (only being hit on 6's, innate cover save, super mobile), it feels like it is only fair that someone fielding a flier should have to at least pay attention to where they are flying. I'm pretty sure when I took down the Scythe, it was by a rhino that was just sitting there anyway. Admittedly, Eldar bikers are crazy fast, but it sounds like it forced a choice between shooting and charging something, or intercepting the flier.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Roland on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:38 pm

Upon thinking bout this, it will really only pop up in 2,situations.

1) you are stunned off interceptor shots.

2) you stun your opp. Flyer and have units that can move into position with a run move (bikes, jetbikes, fast skimmers, jetpacks, etc)

I agree it kinda balances flyers by making you think about "what if".... But keep in mind this was written by the same guys who had to rewrite the entire look out sir section of the rulebook 4,weeks after it came out.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Rhaevyn on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:01 pm

Its one of those things that make zero sense logically, but perhaps has a balancing factor for flyers.

I know its going to piss me off the first time it happens to me. but i think that bases being 1" away from enemy models is one of the founding principles of the 40k ruleset.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Guest on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:00 pm

Well if everyone is on board, then I guess windrider jetbikes are my new flyer finishers

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Darksfear on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:55 pm

Thanks Mark, I had a feeling I was missing something which is why I asked in the first place. Just seemed to miss that one line in the book. Good to know.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Guest on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:21 pm

Unrelated observation::

Robyn is the System Commander and most of the rest of us are all the Lord of Titan for our forum rank (post count indicator maybe?) Is there a way to customize this?

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Roland on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:25 pm

Lord of titan is 1000+ posts. I think a lot of us hit that mark in the last year

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Re: Stunned Flyers

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:29 pm

All interceptor shots are done at the end of the movement phase, if I remember correctly.

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Re: Stunned Flyers

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