Eldar first thoughts

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Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 am

Well, Mike and I got a game in last night.

So ya... stuff.

- The wraithknight, as Mike said, is a Fox in the hen house. The 5++ was a great tool to have, especially with a Farseer casting fortune on it. Ended the game alive with one wound left. It punched out two Land Raiders and absorbed an in-ordinate amount of lascannon shots.

- Wave Serpents are ridiculous. The loadout I had was Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Holo Fields. I barely ever shot the Shuriken Cannon, but they worked together to shoot down mounted warlords, then moved around to secure objectives.

- Asurman is a beat-stick. I don't know why the internet isn't fawning over him as the goto-HQ. He does it all.

- Farseer is okay. I think the thing to do is to take a nekkid one and grab all three primaris powers. I had the Stone of -1 WC foregoing my invul save, which allowed me, on one turn, to cast both Fortune and Mind War. (Mind War is what finished off Mike's Warlord), but I think that's 15 points better spent elsewhere. You're not going to get all the "good" powers every game, ain't nothing wrong with Guide and Prescience and a spare Warp Charge point to negate a perils wound via Ghosthelm.

- Warp Spiders are super good, very maneuverable.

- I'm still not sold on the Striking Scorpions. This game, they performed better than what I think would be average. Killing a Predator and two units CSM. Infiltrate, Stealth, Move through Cover, and the Scorpions Claw are all fantastic upgrades.

- Warlocks did basically nothing.

====

What I noticed after the game is how good Vaul's Support Battery's are. For 90 points you can get 3 Vibro Cannons or 3 Shadow Weavers. The big hole in my list was anti-tank (the Wraithknight had to go stompin'). The idea of having a support battery with 12 T7 wounds for 90 points seems very good. If you guide them, the Vibro Cannons will almost always hit with all 3, making them S9 AP2. Hit with only 2, S8 AP3. I'd shoot them at Fliers, in a pinch.

Here's the kicker. You can add a Warlock to this unit. If you roll Protect/Jinx, that makes the Artillery peices T7 with a 2+ save. Or Conceal/Reveal to either remove someone's Stealth and Shrouded within 18" (not likely), or Shroud your support battery. Now at LD8, that works out to 2/3rds of the time success, with 1/18 times killing the Warlock due to perils.

That, my friends, is a 125 point unit. You put 3 guardians in front, warlock behind them, support weapons and crew behind them, and blast away at your 48" range. Seems good against AV10-13 vehicles to me, and would be serviceable against AV14 if it needed to be.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  miv305 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:15 pm

We'll have to get a game in this week Mark, as it appears you and I have some pretty different opinions on what's good/not good. Is there a night this week that works for ya?

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:57 pm

Tuesday or Wednesday at 8:30 pm.

Edit: did you want to face Daemons or 'Crons?

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  miv305 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:23 pm

Doesn't matter to me what you'd like to play, dealer's choice!

How many points?

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:09 am

Asurman was very good. overly survivable. a credible threat to other characters. eternal warrior.

Striking scorpions str6/I6 guy is super good if your bolters always fail to hit. But see below for reference to snaky armour/cover save units. (from an objective standpoint, i think the unit is overcosted)

the thing that struck me the most, is how frustrating it is fighting an army where everything is "snaky" and has a way to have a 3+ cover save. or a re-rollable 2+/4++ armour save or a re-rollable 3+/5++ and tgh 8. i had i demolisher cannon, 8 lascannons, 2 autocannons 8 combi-meltas 2 beatstick characters, and i did a whole 5 wounds and zero hull points in dmg.

The advent of riptides, bloodthirsters, and foot-tall wraith knights that hit combat on turn 2 really makes for tough decisions. Its only been a day, but right now, i dont have an answer for the wraithknight, other than another large, multiwound model to mash into it. You can't shoot it down, at least i couldn't, not even with 5 turns of shooting. Poisoned weapons, i guess. unit of 10 plaguemarines. fisty-champ. deathstar units with fist weapons.

That being said, i deployed badly and played badly, and rolled badly, so regular game for me.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Planes on Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:20 am

I think as more and more monsters become regular in 40k we will see a definite rise in the rates that snipers and poisoned weapons are fielded.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:12 am


Plaguebearers, Plaguemarines, plague drones, greater daemon might not be right.

Las cannons, I'm not going to have fortune every game. (I might try for it twice)

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:17 am

Planes wrote:I think as more and more monsters become regular in 40k we will see a definite rise in the rates that snipers and poisoned weapons are fielded.

This. I am really trying to figure out a way to get a full sniper drone team into my list. Alas I still like all my current HS choices over them.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Rhaevyn on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:02 am

allied guard ratlings!

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:09 am

Sorcerer with a Force Stave rolling on Biomancy and pray for Iron Arm. S7-S9 with an instant death if duber fails his 3+

Iron Arm also gives Eternal Warrior. If you're lucky enough to get Endurance, you could stay in that fight for a while.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  miv305 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:31 am

I read an interesting article that mentioned the same thing and it went on to talk about how these types of problems are going to lead to more Dark Eldar on the tabletop (who've kind of vanished lately). Luckily I'm the only one in Saskatoon that plays them cheers (that I know of...)

Riptides, FMC's, etc. are scary but the Wraithknight is a whole new ballgame considering how fast the damn thing is. Factor in a Spiritseer with the Wraithforge Stone (adds a wound back per turn) and the chance to have Renew and you could be seeing 2-3 at a time with a pseudo-regenerate. On the plus side that army will have little way to deal with Flyer's so who knows.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Planes on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:18 am

I'm just sad it's strong enough to be immune to a T-Beamer. I would love to field some, but it's such a niche piece of gear that's so pricey.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:43 am

Planes wrote:I'm just sad it's strong enough to be immune to a T-Beamer. I would love to field some, but it's such a niche piece of gear that's so pricey.

You always fail characteristic tests on a '6'

Tom, the Necron answer is Deathmarks. Mark it, wound it on a 2+.

Mindshackle Scarab equipped D-Lord isn't too shabby either, especially if it's got Wraiths or void-blade praetorians (rend and remove the 3+ for the rest of the game). Massed S7 shooting isn't too bad either.

Necron's don't have as much an issue against it (with the right build).

==

As Mike said, what makes the Wraithknight amazing is it's maneuverability.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:53 am

Wave Serpent with Scatter Lasers scores about 1.5 S6 and 1.5 S7 hits when it unloads on a flyer. I consider that a reasonable AA source.

Eldar did not see much play for most of last edition because it was over-costed to deploy almost any unit. Now everything has been curved down and is much stronger.

As for Wraithknight killing, it is not immune to instant death for starters. The Eldar book has Bladestorm, and other Distort weapons and stuff so it could kill a wraithknight. Or someone like Eldrad with his fleshbane AP3 force weapon could down it.

The advent of Codex Daemons brought back in 200-300 point giant nasty creatures with crazy offence and defense powers.

So you no longer just need to consider an anti-air slot in your army, you also need a monster hunter. Something instant death, or a big nasty creature of your own. A Bloodthirster could most likely beat down a wraithknight with his Axe of Khorne that causes instant death. A Lord of CHange could probably control or disable it with spells or something. As for other armies.... Maybe librarians will see more play?

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:59 am

I don't think the big daemons are an answer to the Wraith Knight.

I don't think the Eldar player would let the Bloodthirster get there, and the wraithknight can just... move away. Blood thirster is only T6 with a 3+, not exactly scary.

Eldrad's weapon is AP3, but Witchblades and Singing Spears are AP-.

For Eldar, the bladestorm weapons will do the job.

==

Wave Serpents against Heldrakes is a mixed bag, and the math is quite goofy for hits on fliers. Let me work out some hardcore math and I'll re-post it here. I'll graph it out, #of S6 hits and #of S7 hits.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:03 am

I know for me it is simply going to be down to volume of fire. I think I have enough high S low AP shots to reliably down him. I'm also considering running Kroot snipers! Twisted Evil

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:57 am

From 1000 simulations, the following is a graph of the results.

The X-Axis represents the number of "hits", the Y-Axis represents the percentage chance to get that number of hits.


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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:55 pm

How did your scatter lazers hit 5 times?

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Planes on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:07 pm

Elf magics.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Lore Weaver on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:14 pm

Underslung Shuriken Cannon.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:17 pm

hmm, I guess v flyers you are snap firing everything anyways, so go 12" fire all 3

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:18 pm

I'd imagine there is a huge variation depending if you hit with the scatter laser or not, and what you get from your shields since they are both random.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  judchic on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:00 pm

Lore Weaver wrote:
For Eldar, the bladestorm weapons will do the job.
How? Isn't it T8? Basic Shuriken weapons don't hurt him on the roll of a 6. They just become ap2. Are there other guns with that rule that are str 5+?

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  Aegwymourn on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:15 pm

judchic wrote:
Lore Weaver wrote:
For Eldar, the bladestorm weapons will do the job.
How? Isn't it T8? Basic Shuriken weapons don't hurt him on the roll of a 6. They just become ap2. Are there other guns with that rule that are str 5+?

They still auto-inflict a wound I believe.

Edit: Yup they do.

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Re: Eldar first thoughts

Post  judchic on Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:22 pm

Doesn't the rule just make em ap2?
bladestorm makes weapons ap2 on roll of a 6 (but not auto wound) wraith knights are T8 or am I off on one of those rules?

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