Blade of Blood!

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Blade of Blood!

Post  Guest on Sun May 12, 2013 11:33 am

Question about the new codex daemons!

If one takes a Bloodthirster with greater rewards, he can elect to replace the award with a Blade of Blood (like taking the primaris power if you dislike your roll)

The blade of blood is

Range - STR User AP 2 Type: Melee, Bloodlust, Specialist Weapon

The Bloodlust special rule: The bearer of the Blade of Blood has the rampage special rule.

The Rampage special rule is in the BRB. Models with rampage is outnumbered in assault, and did not perform a disorganised charge this phase, it gains +d3 attacks. It also mentions that this counts models in combat not just models engaged.

Given that a bloodthirster starts with an Axe of Khorne, which is also a specialist weapon, if it obtains a blade of blood, and gets into combat where he is outnumbered, does he gain an extra d3+1 (for 2 weapon fighting with specialist weapon) while still using his Axe of Khorne as his main weapon?

The extra attack from specialist weapon seems obvious to me, the question I am asking is, "do people feel the the bloodlust special rule should apply even if the weapon is not being used, as it says, 'the bearer', has the rule (which may imply that he has it even if he is not using the weapon)."

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun May 12, 2013 12:06 pm

canadin wrote:
Given that a bloodthirster starts with an Axe of Khorne, which is also a specialist weapon, if it obtains a blade of blood, and gets into combat where he is outnumbered, does he gain an extra d3+1 (for 2 weapon fighting with specialist weapon) while still using his Axe of Khorne as his main weapon?

The extra attack from specialist weapon seems obvious to me, the question I am asking is, "do people feel the the bloodlust special rule should apply even if the weapon is not being used, as it says, 'the bearer', has the rule (which may imply that he has it even if he is not using the weapon)."

You'd only get the bloodlust rule while using the blade of blood. You would not be able to get the bloodlust rule while using the Axe of Khorne.

Think of Fisty-Claw guy. You don't get shred when using the power fist.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  dusktiger on Sun May 12, 2013 12:07 pm

no. the rule is for that weapon, not the model, so it would be only if you elect to use that weapon.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun May 12, 2013 12:10 pm

I think it falls under the "Tchotch" rule. Which is as stated, "If Mark might call me a tchotch for using this in the game, then it's probably not in the rules, or it's super lame."

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Guest on Sun May 12, 2013 2:36 pm

Blade of Blood Question 2:

Does this make sense?

Bloodthirster with Blade of Blood hits melee and uses Smash to go up to STR 10. Attacks go from 6 down to 3. would this be 3 +1 (2 weap fight) +d3 if outnumbered? (and forgoes the axe of khorne benefits?)

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 pm

For smash that is how I would read it. It halves your base attacks then you add any modifiers.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  dusktiger on Sun May 12, 2013 3:45 pm

i'd have to re-read it again, but i think Smash is an alternate attack; your giving up all your normal attacks to do a number of double-strength value attacks that are equal to half your normal amount of attacks, rounding up; you're either doing the smash attack, or attacking with your weapons. so you wouldn't get the +1 for a special weapon, or the +D3 attacks that weapon confers to its attacks, since your not using that weapon.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Roland on Sun May 12, 2013 3:56 pm

Point mike. Cuz otherwise if you took a PF equiv and smashed, you'd get x4 str..... Ya know, like a dreadknight.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun May 12, 2013 4:11 pm

SMASH - "... Additionally, when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a Smash Attack. If it does so, roll To Hit as normal, but halve its Attacks characteristic. A Smash Attack also doubles the model's Strength (to a maximum of 10) for the purposes of that Attack..." BRB pg. 42.

Note that it doesn't say you lose any benefits of weapons, etc. You simply get to halve your attacks for the boost in Strength. I think the important line is "roll To Hit as normal" meaning that everything else is the same. Also for bonuses to attacks and Smash GW faq following.


Q: The rulebook says that you halve your Attacks characteristic if
you perform a Smash attack. However, if a Monstrous Creature has
an uneven number of Attacks, (3 for example), but has charged that
turn, does it receive the bonus Attack for charging before or after
halving its Attacks? (p42)
A: You halve the modelís Attacks characteristic first, then
apply any additional modifiers. In the example above, the
model would halve its Attacks first (rounding up to 2), then
receive a bonus Attack for charging



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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  dusktiger on Sun May 12, 2013 4:51 pm

your quote finds the flaw in your arguement though, Aeg;
when it makes its close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a Smash Attack.
when you choose to attack, and have multiple weapons, you have to choose the weapon your attacking with, such as either a lightning claw, or a power fist, using a previous example. but those models witht he Smash rule choose to instead make a Smash attack, and then it goes on to describe how many of those you get. you cut the number of attacks (3 normally) in half, round up (gets 2), and if they charged that turn, they get +1 attack for the charge bonus (3 hits). but after that, is back to 2 smash attacks.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun May 12, 2013 5:10 pm

See I don't read the rule that way at all. I can see where you are coming from, but this is how I see it. First a model chooses which weapon to attack with (assuming they have more than one), then if they have the smash special rule they can choose to Smash Attack. Why wouldn't a Bloodthirster wind up and swing that badass weapon with both hands for a Smash Attack. By your logic a Smash Attack is a different weapon type, which it isn't. I read that line as "instead of his full complement of attack(s) a model can instead halve their base attacks and attack at double strength with their (now reduced) attack(s) as normal."

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  dusktiger on Sun May 12, 2013 6:11 pm

yea, i can see why you'd look at it that way, but i think doing it that way leads to overpowered attacks; in most cases, this is a Str 10 AP 2 attack; remember, smash attacks are already AP 2.

edit; i can see one thing that might make it go either way though; it states that if the weapon is AP1, itll alter the smash attacks to AP 1.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Aegwymourn on Sun May 12, 2013 8:02 pm

I agree that the attacks would be incredibly powerful. However, that is the feeling I get from 6th edition in general. The whole "narrative" style leads to characters that can dictate games, which is either good or bad. i suppose it'll have to get added to the FAQ list for GW. Razz

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Lore Weaver on Sun May 12, 2013 10:59 pm

Multiply & Divide then Add & Subtract.

Kachow.

So yes, halve, rounding up, then add modifiers. Kairos, when he assaults, halves his attack characteristic of 1 to 1 when making a smash attack, then adds his +1 for charging.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Planes on Sun May 12, 2013 11:42 pm

Ermahgewd, it's BEDMAS all over again!

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  dusktiger on Sun May 12, 2013 11:48 pm

so you would say, mark, that the Bloodthirster in question here would only get 3 Smash attacks base, +1 if he charged, but not the +1 for dual wielding 2 specialist weapons, or the additional D3 attacks from the Axe of Blood Conferring Rampage on the model?

to give a narrative example of the situation, the way i read the rules, is they're trying to get across that the Bloodthirster walks up to Marneus Calgar (who's prolly smoking a cigar and squinting like the marine from the starcraft 2 teaser trailer) and decides "im not going to use my fancy Axe of Khorne, or my Blade of Blood; im gonna smash his head Hulk style." and tosses his mighty weapons aside to clench his fists together and slam them down on Calgar's head.

since he decided to attack that way, clearly, he'd not have the bonuses conferred by his weapons, because he chose not to attack with them, but instead do 3, possibly 4, Str 10 AP 2 attacks instead of 7/8 attacks with either the Axe or the Blade cause he charged. 8 attacks becoming 8+D3 if he charged some assault marines that no longer have a sergeant to issue/accept challenges. (because first, he has to be outnumbered, and second, challenges are one-on-one duels, so your not outnumbered if your fighting a challenge)

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Guest on Mon May 13, 2013 1:21 am

If we divide then add, then 6/2 = 3 + 1 (2weaps) + d3 if outnumbered + 1 if charging = 6-8 if smashing on charge. 5-7 if not charging, 4 if not outnumbered (fighting a vehicle, another 1 man unit, or let's say bailing a guardsman squad out of melee with enemies)

I am pretty sure you still get to use a weapon even when smashing, so he should keep rampage.

As for the duel thing, the rampage rule specifies that it counts models in combat, not just models engaged, so dueling shouldn't effect this.

Even without smash, Bloodthirsters with the Exalted Blade of Blood charging a unit would get 9-11 Strength 7 attacks with AP 2.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Planes on Mon May 13, 2013 1:48 am

Does it say explicitly anywhere that you don't get to use your weapon?

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Termagant on Fri May 17, 2013 2:44 am

No, it doesn't. But I will have to put my hat on the side of smash being a different attack and not getting those bonuses.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  System Commander on Fri May 17, 2013 10:26 am

It would be nice to see on this because it is pretty confusing.

Ive used the bloodthirster lots.. sometimes with the blade of blood. I m pretty sure Ive been using rampage in challenges.. although that was simply becuase i wasnt thinking about it. I dont really know if he does.or not..its murky at beast.

Smash and rampage is a complete mess... although id lean to the side of why nother.. umless you need to kill some tgh 5 multiwould creatures. If thats the case.. probably easier to just use the smash as is.. with no.vonuses till its faqd. Telling someone.your gonna take 7 str 10 attacks and then arguing about.it for ten.minutes.is fn.

I know how much you like to stretch the rules.and debate Adam but it makes for a horrible game.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Aegwymourn on Fri May 17, 2013 10:59 am

To be fair Robyn, most of the arguing has been done by me. Adam simply posted a rules question. Another circumstance this would effect is a Tyranid Monstrous Creature with "Crushing Claws".

From what I have seen there is a number of people arguing both ways on this all over the interwebz. I hope it is in the next round of FAQs.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  System Commander on Fri May 17, 2013 12:33 pm

Im not talking about this thread.. Im talking about games and rules disputes happening in general in his games.

I just picked a bad time to bring it up.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Guest on Sat May 18, 2013 3:46 pm

System Commander wrote:It would be nice to see on this because it is pretty confusing.

Ive used the bloodthirster lots.. sometimes with the blade of blood. I m pretty sure Ive been using rampage in challenges.. although that was simply becuase i wasnt thinking about it. I dont really know if he does.or not..its murky at beast.

Smash and rampage is a complete mess... although id lean to the side of why nother.. umless you need to kill some tgh 5 multiwould creatures. If thats the case.. probably easier to just use the smash as is.. with no.vonuses till its faqd. Telling someone.your gonna take 7 str 10 attacks and then arguing about.it for ten.minutes.is fn.

I know how much you like to stretch the rules.and debate Adam but it makes for a horrible game.

I played a game with Joseph a week or so ago, and his bloodthirster did amazing. As a fan of giant dudes with axes, I decided to read through codex daemons and see what exactly this monster can do. I noticed there is an exalted reward that grants rage and rampage. I then figured out that greater rewards could be traded for blade of blood. This made it a possible automatic choice. It cost 20 points instead of 30. The blade of blood also looked better than the exalted reward because 2 weapon fighting is better than rage. I added a few quick numbers and got up to way too many attacks.

So, in order to save an argument mid-game, I figured I would ask the community what it thought. I actually do not like to stretch the rules, and prefer not debating midgame over English syntax, RAW vs RAI, or other things of the sort. I do however like to run the game the way the rules exist. If there is a disagreement over the rules mid game, I prefer to look it up. And in the case of ambiguity, I would like to know your guys' opinion on the matter.

If you think smash plus rampage is far too silly, I won't use it in a game, since 10 s7 attacks is still tons. If you guys think its over powered, but just as legit as say hell drakes, then bloodthirster becomes a nice counter to units like wraiths.

I don't think it is stretching the rules to ask the comunity's opinion about stuff before starting a project like modelling my greater daemon wielding a whip sword and axe combo.

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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Roland on Sat May 18, 2013 8:31 pm

General question for Grey Knight players:

How how you been handling the nemesis greatsword? If you're saying you can smash with it, it follows you can smash with a weapon, it's not an alternate attack like vector strike or hammer of wrath.


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Re: Blade of Blood!

Post  Planes on Sat May 18, 2013 9:06 pm

This answer is probably going to come out not very useful, but regarding the Dreadknight and the Great Sword, you wouldn't be inclined to take that load out in 6th, as the basic fists puts you at Str 10 with a Force Weapon already.

On a more helpful note, however, bringing up Hammer of Wrath and Vector Strike, I feel, I useful to the discussion at hand. HoW and VS both have their own profiles, Str (user) and AP -- for the HoW, and Str (user) and AP 3, no cover saves allowed for the VS. Smash does not provide us with a profile, but rather modifies whats already going on, halving one stat before modifiers and doubling another. The Monsterous Creature entry even points to the creature itself having a baked in AP of 2, unless it has a weapon with better.

I would agree that the wording is overall ambiguous, but I think RAI points to this actually working.

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